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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Who is being unreasonable ? Re sex workers

45 replies

help14993 · 10/06/2015 15:44

Am asking for a friend who has asked to post on my account and have thereby NC, here's what she has said

"I've been with my boyfriend for 20 months, and about 9 months ago he admitted to me that about a year before we had got together he had regularly slept with prostitutes (about 20 in total), and visited strip clubs (only with friends for drinks and only once had gotten a private dance which he'd hated). Now obviously this was before we got together, but I took it really hard as had imaged there was always a "type" of guy who did that sort of thing, and assumed that that type of guy would also cheat/lie etc. it also hurt me a lot just when considering him in comparison to my friends boyfriends, who seem very butter wouldn't melt and like they'd never do that.
We moved on past it and he swore there was nothing else to tell me, until last night where he revealed a "funny" story about a time he was getting a private dance and a stripper "excited" him, and it came out that he has actually had them many times and actually quite enjoyed them back in the day. I went mental, screaming calling him scum, which was unfair of me but I was so hurt as I thought i had been told all of it last time.
Now it comes to the morning and we don't know who is being unreasonable, he thinks I should mind my own business as it was before we were together and is furious at me for the things I said when I was mad, whereas I am upset because I thought I knew the whole truth and I'm so mad at him for bringing it up again, and because I think things like this are a very big deal and now I don't know wether I can trust him.
Who is being unreasonable?"

Also just to say as it's mumsnet I am expecting to be called a troll, this is not a troll message just a very weird situation

OP posts:
Gottagetmoving · 11/06/2015 13:25

Apeman

A prostitute has the right to decide what she does with her body but the point is that in many cases they do not feel they have a 'choice'
Of course she can make her own decisions and of course she knows her own mind but the choice will often be made because she needs money, or is an addict.
Her consent is indeed consent, however a man who respects women would not take sexual advantage of a woman's need for drugs or money.

I don't think prostitutes are the problem. The men who make use of them are.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 14:32

That whole concept is predicated on the idea that the woman in question cannot make her own decisions and does not know her own mind, and that you can say she is not giving "true consent" and treat her as an infant, a person without consent to give, if you disapprove of her sexual morality

Absolute bollocks. It has NOTHING to do with knowing their own minds and everything to do with acknowledging the reality: prostitution is instituionalised sexual oppression.

Your argument is that hookers choose it and how dare anyone tell them different. Sure, at careers day they were told, how about prostitution, good career choice for you! They looked at the many prospects they had and chose walking the streets because it seemed like a great move! They aren't at all forced into it by poverty or drug use or violent men? They chose it of their own free will? You think one single woman thought, no, I won't be a lawyer or a nurse or a programmer, I'll be a prostitute? Nice try.

So how many women do you know considered the career path? Your mother? Your sister, your daughter? No, these women are always "other", aren't they?

Don't be a fool. That argument is used by men to justify their use of sex workers. They assign choice where there is none to make their own choices seem less repellant. Try listening to the real experiences of sex workers before you trot out these tired old tropes.

Over 70% of women began working in the sex industry as minors. The average age of entry into prostitution is FOURTEEN. Children and teenagers bought for sex. Was that their own choice, did they give consent? At least 50% were in the care system at some point. A similar number report being victims of sexual abuse. Once involved in sex work, 9 out of 10 women surveyed would like to get out but feel unable to. Is that free choice and consent?

Don't you dare tell me that I'm patronising women by telling the truth about their situation, as THEY have told us. Angry And fuck off commenting about sexual morality, as if that has the first thing to do with this. Prostitution isn't about sex, not to anyone but the punters. IT's about violence, exploitation, abuse and money. Very little of which gets to the women involved.

Get educated.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 11/06/2015 14:42

Standing ovation for Winter

Said everything I wanted to say and more besides, far more eloquently than I ever could.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 14:45

Get the facts:
www.turnofftheredlight.ie/learn-more/
www.demandchange.org.uk/

Gottagetmoving · 11/06/2015 15:26

Excellent post Winter

helenahandbag · 11/06/2015 15:35

Winter

diggerdigsdogs · 11/06/2015 15:40

Brilliant winter

ApeMan · 11/06/2015 16:19

"Your argument is that hookers choose it and how dare anyone tell them different."

No, that's not my argument, I haven't put forward an argument yet.

My position is that false consciousness fallacy is fallacious. It is.

"Sure, at careers day they were told, how about prostitution, good career choice for you! They looked at the many prospects they had and chose walking the streets because it seemed like a great move! They aren't at all forced into it by poverty or drug use or violent men? They chose it of their own free will? You think one single woman thought, no, I won't be a lawyer or a nurse or a programmer, I'll be a prostitute? Nice try."

I had a good friend for many years who did just that, although sadly no more. She was a high genius, one of the brightest people I've known, could have done anything she liked and made mincemeat of third-rate intellectualized arguments that she was just some poor dumb slut whose whole life was a sorry litany of choices made for her by the evil world.

Like the one you have just "trotted out"

She also made more money in a few years than most people will see in their life-times, doing something she wanted to do.

She is not the only case of a person who chose that life, that I know of. So actually, on the contrary.

"Don't be a fool."

I'm not a fool, I can be reasonably clever, actually, but thanks for getting needlessly personal.

"That argument is used by men to justify their use of sex workers. They assign choice where there is none to make their own choices seem less repellant. Try listening to the real experiences of sex workers before you trot out these tired old tropes."

It's not trotted out by me to justify use of sex workers' services, because I don't. I had quite a few heated arguments on the matter, as I always disapproved of prostitution, strongly and was good friends with someone who actively enjoyed it who I wanted to "save", presumably on similar grounds to the beliefs you have, perhaps yours are sincere and heartfelt too.

On the other hand, I will make the observation, in the sad absence of those who would, that people who know the minds of other people better than they do are only able to say so in their absence - because the poor pitiful people they are talking about may well take exception. Whether it's a low income worker, an SAHP, a prostitute, a bank robber or whoever else that kind of talk is "representing" the effect is the same: "look at these poor automata to be pitied, obviously they would never have their wretched life if they had a choice because I say so, so even if they say they do, take it from me they aren't making a real choice, it isn't "real consent". The reality is that other people do make choices to do things.

"Over 70% of women began working in the sex industry as minors. The average age of entry into prostitution is FOURTEEN. Children and teenagers bought for sex. Was that their own choice, did they give consent? At least 50% were in the care system at some point. A similar number report being victims of sexual abuse. Once involved in sex work, 9 out of 10 women surveyed would like to get out but feel unable to. Is that free choice and consent?"
You're talking about rape and abuse victims. Yes rape and abuse victims are rape and abuse victims. A lot of people in the sex industry are also adopted, and an even higher proportion of transsexuals end up in it when they would rather not, too. Lots of people do get "caught up in" a life of abuse and prostitution, which is horrific. I am all for stopping that.

Also, people can choose to be sex workers, and it can't be assumed that someone who chooses to work in the sex industry "cannot give consent".

"Don't you dare tell me that I'm patronising women by telling the truth about their situation, as THEY have told us. angry And fuck off"

I'll tell you what I like, and politely, too (a trick you can copy if you like) but what I did was not "tell you you were patronizing women by telling the truth"

What I did was point out that people are assuming others cannot give "real consent" which is to suggest they are in some way mentally deficient.

If you let the red mist clear for a second, you'll see that I observed that, but also pointed out that I doubt it was intentional.

"commenting about sexual morality, as if that has the first thing to do with this. Prostitution isn't about sex, not to anyone but the punters. IT's about violence, exploitation, abuse and money. Very little of which gets to the women involved.

Get educated."

I grew up around prostitutes and their lives and their stories, believe me I am far more educated about the subject than I have ever wished to be, and have had my heart and my life affected more deeply by them than the average person who tells people to "get educated" about it will probably ever understand or empathize with.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 18:34

Whatever you tell yourself, mate. You know an intelligent woman who chose to be a prostitute, I guess that means that 90% of women who desparately want out must be lying so. I guess the huge number of women who got roped into it as children and/or drug addicts are lying too. Hmm You use whatever lies you need to make it acceptable for men to treat women as commodities to be bought and sold. IMO there is no justification for that, but I can see why men need to rationalise it.

And is there need to call anyone "dumb sluts"? Nice language Apeman. Apt username, btw.

cailindana · 11/06/2015 18:58

We live in a society where on group (men) buys use of the bodies of the other group. That is something that we as humans should be ashamed of.

The5DayChicken · 11/06/2015 19:02

I think I'd be alright with a guy saying he'd been to strip clubs and had private dances, providing he no longer did it.

I may even be ok with him having used a prostitute once.

But not 20 times. Especially when you can't trust that number because he's also been lying. And when he openly talks about getting excited by a private dance to your friend despite knowing her feelings about it.

They've only been together 20 months. Your friend needs to stand back and assess what this man really brings to her life.

PrawnToast12 · 11/06/2015 19:09

Its so ridiculous giving an opinion on an industry that you have no personal experience of. Yawn. A man who uses prostitutes is not necessarily a misogynist. That is such a black and white sweeping statement.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 19:17

A man who uses prostitutes is not necessarily a misogynist.

Yes he is. And if you think such a serious subject is yawnworthy, why bother contributing at all?

PrawnToast12 · 11/06/2015 19:19

I think black and white sweeping statements are yawnworthy.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 19:21

I think you're yawnworthy. But who fucking cares?

BertrandRussell · 11/06/2015 19:23

Winter,I second absolutely everything you say. Thank you for speaking out.

Ev1lEdna · 11/06/2015 19:58

I absolutely agree with Winter and I'm finding the linguistic gymnastics and the rolling out of the anecdotal, token, intelligent, women who chose prostitution over any other career she could do, absolutely fascinating.

To the OP's friend, for me it would be the end but only she can decide what she is comfortable with. 'Using' a prostitute twenty (or more) times seems a little excessive to me and such a round number! I wouldn't be able to put it behind me and continue with the relationship even if it was his past as it would speak volumes, to me, about his character and more importantly it would conflict with my beliefs too sharply. As I said though only she can decide how she really feels about this and if she can forget about it and continue in the relationship then I wish her the best of luck.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 · 11/06/2015 20:46

Got to be done, Bertrand. Thanks.

Incandescentage · 11/06/2015 21:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BathtimeFunkster · 11/06/2015 21:16

Very well said, Winter.

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