Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed with my friends GP? (and can anyone help - Named referral)

144 replies

ASorcererIsAWizardSquared · 09/06/2015 14:27

My best friend is ill, but the GP are doing so little to help her.

Her symptoms are indicative of her having Crohnes disease, mouth full of ulcers, sudden weight loss, nausea, unable to eat...etc.

My brothers DP has crohnes and spoke to her Consultant about my friend, and the Consultant said my BF should have been seen by a consultant ages ago, that the rapid weightloss and mouth ulcers alone should be screaming REFER TO GASTRO at them, and told brothers DP to tell my BF to go to her GP and tell them to refer her straight to her.

She said as its a named referral, bf's GP legally had to make the referral.

BF been to her GP today, and they have refused to refer her, stating they want to do more investigations and get her in counselling for her anxiety before they will refer her to a gastro consultant.

Quite frankly, by then my friend will be dead, she can barely eat, her weight has dropped from her being a size 12/14 to a size 6 in the space of 4 months, she is wasting away in front of us and her GPs are being assholes and there will be nothing of her left for them to refer by the time NHS counselling materialises!

What can we do? I'm lost and i cant bear to see my friend so ill and being messed around like this, the GPs can't do anything, she needs to see a proper Gastro Consultant!!

OP posts:
ASorcererIsAWizardSquared · 10/06/2015 08:04

why? what else would i call it, the nurse who see's you when you go into our A&E is called the Triage Nurse, therefore, when she see's you, and take your details and assesses if A&E is where you need to be, its called being Triaged.

I dont know how other A&E's work, but here, as soon as you go in, you have to take a number and be triaged, so time wasters or non-emergencies get told to go home or go and to the GP walk in that is also on site (or the OOH if its not within surgery hours)

OP posts:
popalot · 10/06/2015 08:11

Fact is, crohns should be discounted by investigation. Why would any GP disagree with that. Bit worrying that a GP has posted here saying she has the wrong 'attitude' and shouldn't demand a test on her own body!!! GPs aren't the font of all knowledge, they are people like the rest of us. GPs are great, but they are the starting point for further investigation if the problem is chronic and they can't resolve it. That's not GP bashing, that is common sense. That said, there is the possibility that your friend has other issues the GP is aware of that you are not. Still, only way to know for sure is referral.

ragged · 10/06/2015 08:24

I never go to A&E, but I work in public health. So I know it as a technical word, not a real life word. Is there a big sign that says TRIAGE when you go to A&E? Or does everybody you meet at A&E use the word a lot?

Before current job I had only ever heard "triage" in episodes of Mash

tiggytape · 10/06/2015 08:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

weaselwords · 10/06/2015 08:32

Maybe her GP is on the right track with the way s/he is dealing with it?

mamadoc · 10/06/2015 09:05

Your friend is clearly very ill but it is not at all clear that it is Crohns or anything that a gastro consultant can help with.

The symptoms of weight loss, nausea and mouth ulcers can be due to a lot of causes.

The GP seems to have done a lot of relevant tests ie bloods, endoscopy and referral for colonoscopy. Colonoscopy is key to rule Crohns in or out.

If she did have an inflammatory bowel disease so bad as to cause that degree of weight loss usually she would have pain and diarrhoea and would be anaemic and have raised inflammatory markers on bloods. If she doesn't have these features maybe that is why the GP is legitimately considering other diagnoses.
It is actually an error to pursue one diagnosis and not consider other things because you have to start all over if you are wrong.

Severe depression would be in the differential diagnosis of weight loss. It is not illegitimate to consider that at all.

redpriestandmozart · 10/06/2015 09:13

I've seen the triage nurse, with sign on door at every A&E I've been to go since my eldest was a baby so 22yrs. I don't think triage is new and on arrival receptionist will say you'll be triaged then seen by a Dr. It's not a new thing and general public do know and use the term.

wannabestressfree · 10/06/2015 09:30

I agree with mama. If my crohns flares it shows in my blood. My markers are up (white blood cell count) and I have very low iron. I also have B12 injections to keep me stable.

frumpet · 10/06/2015 11:43

Couple of practical things that may help your friend , if she isn't working and so available to go for the colonoscopy at anytime , could she ring the endoscopy department and explain how pants she is feeling and that she is able to come in if they get a cancellation . They may even be able to tell her when her appointment is .

I personally think the counselling is a good idea , I imagine, although I do not have Chrohns , but like so many conditions , elevated stress and anxiety can often make symptoms worse . Plus if she does end up with that diagnosis the counselling may help her deal with all the feelings associated with a lifetime illness .

I hope your friend gets her colonoscopy and some answers soon .

MonstrousRatbag · 10/06/2015 12:25

I didn't realise ordinary people used wording like 'triaged at A&E'

Really? You only have to go there once and it's 'triage' over here and 'triage' over there. Plus all the TV and news references. It isn't obscure language.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 10/06/2015 12:40

Another person here finding the picking on the use of 'triage' rather odd. You may as well pick at a layperson knowing the word for 'bandage' or 'red blood count'.

AliceScarlett · 10/06/2015 13:13

How long is it until she gets her endoscopy results?

CandyLane · 10/06/2015 13:38

ragged do you live in the UK?
I think I've been familiar with the word 'triage' since my first visit to A&E when I was about 4.

"Ok take a seat and the Triage nurse will see you soon"

"The Triage nurse is ready for you now, she's just over there in the Triage room" (a room with a sign over the top saying TRIAGE)

"Hi I'm the Triage nurse and I'm going to assess you today"

It's really not a fancy medical term, it's a real word used by normal people.

ragged · 10/06/2015 13:51

Don't watch TV.

Only the last 24 years, Candy. I think I've been to A&E twice in last 10 yrs (GP sent us so maybe no triage) and maybe once before that, with a friend who bumped her head in about 1993.

Plus I was an emergency admission once (also sent by GP, too ill to read signs, anyway).

It's good that people are so familiar with triage and hopefully like it too, because it's an important tool in making sure people get the right care. I was reading a lot yesterday about unhappy experiences of triage.

ASorcererIsAWizardSquared · 10/06/2015 14:46

i use quite a lot of medical terms, so its really not unusual for me to use it.. my dad was in hospital with Kidney Failure and Sepsis for 6 months before he died, you get used to picking up the terms they use when discussing his care and the procedures they had to do, makes it easier on everyone.

I also had to care for my DH after he got 3rd degree burns after an accident at work, so spent a lot of time talking to the nurses at the burns unit as it was a 2hr drive away and between visits, i had to change the dressings.

I dont like using 'lay' terms for things when the correct medical word is perfectly reasonable to use!

OP posts:
SmillasSenseOfSnow · 10/06/2015 16:22

It's not limited to hospitals, people would talk about being triaged by the practice nurse if you needed to get an emergency appointment at the GPs the last time I lived in the UK.

electionfatigue · 10/06/2015 18:20

A named referral can actually delay things. there are 4 consultants in my local gastro department. If I do the letter to "Dear Doctor", it will go to whoever has the first appointment free. If I do it to Dear Dr Smith then it will wait for Dr Smith, even if she's about to go on a long holiday/is booked up for ages. I generally only address letters to a named consultant if it is their particular area of interest and I want the patient to see them even if it means a longer wait. At the point of diagnosis, any consultant could deal with this.

ElphabaTheGreen · 10/06/2015 20:38

Sorry - busy day. Just back to respond to the 'side thread' questions about non-organic disorders.

Smilla I'm pretty sure we were just taught a functional disorder is quite explicitly not the same as a psychosomatic disorder.

That's a slightly out of date way of looking at it - and the term 'psychosomatic' is to be avoided. Even 'conversion disorder' is becoming unpopular among those who are the experts in the field of physical disorders with no identifiable organic basis. Clinicians are being encouraged to refer to all disorders with a non-organic basis as 'functional' because, well, that's what they are. A disorder of function, if not necessarily structure. Patients are far more accepting of that term, and are therefore far more amenable to the most appropriate treatment. There are many more 'acceptable' functional disorders, like IBS, that would never have been classed as a 'conversion disorder, but that you cannot deny respond well to psychological therapies. Fibromyalgia being the best example.

duplodon it is pretty dangerous for a GP to proceed on the basis that something is a conversion disorder based on short consultations, no?

Depends how well the GP knows the patient, doesn't it? And how conclusive the tests that have been done are. It's pretty dangerous for a GP to order up a massive pile of invasive tests if there is nothing there to be found, and is only going to reinforce the belief that 'there is something terribly wrong with me, my GP is crap and no one is doing anything to help me'. It's a massive reason why there is such a lot of GP-hopping among patients with functional disorders. The better the GP gets to know them, the more the tests start dwindling as it becomes obvious that the cause of their problems is psychological and (99.99% of the time) social.

I had an adult neuro client once whose stammer was judged by GP as conversion disorder. He was bloody lucky that didn't kill him.

Yes, that was fortunate, but he obviously still got referred on for the appropriate tests that got him diagnosed properly. Consider conversely, however, the patients with a functional disorder who are misdiagnosed with an unspecified physical problem. They have years, and years, and years of dangerous, ineffective treatments (there is an alarmingly high rate of unnecessary surgery among patients with functional disorders, especially hysterectomies) GP hopping as mentioned above, repeat hospital admissions, invasive tests and drug trials costing the NHS millions...yet it's the patients who get a physical diagnosis after they were, in their words, 'told it's all in my head' that we reserve sympathy for. Physical problems are considered, at every conceivable level, even covertly, to be so much worse than psychiatric ones, when that's so very much not the case.

Conversion disorder symptoms are usually defined as being short lived, too, aren't they? Recurrent but short lived.

Most definitely not! Functional disorder symptoms can roll on for years and, in the majority of cases, for a lifetime. Cure rates are something like 30-50%. You have a better chance with many forms of cancer. Symptoms are wildly inconsistent to the objective observer, yes, but for the patient, they are continuous and drag on for years. You can pick the functional patients just by looking at the trolley of medical notes on a ward - they're thick as War and Peace and up to Volume 5. It's malingerers who have short-lived non-organic problems - they deliberately put on symptoms until they get what they want (or get caught out) then beat a hasty and permanent retreat before they get into trouble.

Sorry OP Blush Pet subject of mine. I do hope your friend gets the correct treatment soon.

ElphabaTheGreen · 10/06/2015 20:51

Excellent website here for anyone studying/wanting to know more about functional disorders. This one happens to just be for neurological symptoms, but the university team that maintains the website is based in Edinburgh (I think) and do a great deal of high-quality research into the area.

duplodon · 10/06/2015 21:43

No, he didn't get referred onward. He had a neurological event that triggered the stammer, following by a more serious neurological event which had very seriously disabling consequences. He wasn't even referred to speech therapy for the stammer.

Where I live now, you have a regular, named GP and have 20 minute consultations. Where I lived in the UK, I rarely saw the same GP twice and never for more than a few minutes at a time. I fully expect there are GP's who have sustained ongoing relationships with clients where they can get an eye for this sort of thing. At the same time, I thought that guidance was that you needed to rule out organic causes and have a psychiatric evaluation before you were diagnosed as having a conversion/functional disorder. Your link won't open for me unfortunately.

I am training to work in mental health and have worked with psychogenic voice/stammering in the past, so I've no issue with the validity of pursuing a conversion disorder diagnosis btw! I just assumed you needed a psych evaluation as opposed to generic counselling.

pod78 · 11/06/2015 00:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

electionfatigue · 11/06/2015 06:50

duplodon I don't know where you live but I would imagine that one of those 20 minute consultations costs you or your insurance company approximately what we get funded to look after a patient for a year (did you know that the govt pays a practice £60-80 per year to look after a patient no matter how many times they attend?)

We do our absolute best in very difficult circumstances but it is getting harder and harder to recruit GPs and the GP bashing from the media and general population is one of the reasons. It sounds like this case is more an issue with waiting lists, which are outside of the GPs control.

Gudgyx · 11/06/2015 06:51

Lots of us with crohns here!

To diagnose it for definite, your friend WILL need a colonoscopy. CRP markers from blood tests may show inflammation or infection, but it won't show where it is. I've had numerous times where my CRP markers have been very high for nurses to say oh u must have an infection somewhere, but I know my normal level so can tell them why it's high.

The GP won't refer her to a gastro when they have no diagnosis. There appears to be a lot of other possibilities GPs need to check before they come to IBD. I personally was very lucky as I first went to GP with symptoms in the January, saw a locum who knew what it was straight away and instantly referred me for a colonoscopy. I was diagnosed for March.

5 years on I now have no large bowel and a permanent stoma. I really hope your friend finds out what's wrong, and that for her sake, it isn't crohns.

Flossieflower01 · 11/06/2015 07:11

Elpheba- my GP had me in the 'functional disorder' category for several years due to my fatigue, muscle pain, low mood etc etc. new GP did blood tests, referred my to a rheumatologist and I was diagnosed with lupus. Who knows how many years I would have carried on being told it was all in my head if the new GP hadn't actually taken me seriously!! Please be careful to check for all organic causes before you label people!!

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 11/06/2015 16:26

Thanks Elphaba, the teaching on this stuff has been questionable at best (loads of the articles/publications in the main language of teaching are riddled with spelling and punctuation mistakes, for example, I'm not too impressed with their standards, wish they'd hire a bloody proofreader and try to understand things before teaching about them).