about girls being asked to wear skirts

[EddieStobbart]

Curious about this one as been discussing with a friend. Her DD is 11 and in her school choir. Performance coming up soon and request from teacher who runs it that girls wear skirts (and boys wear trousers) - teacher view is it looks neater.

No restriction with girls wearing trousers at school.

The DD wears trousers most of the time although friend says she does own a suitable skirt which she will be wearing on the day.

My view is the teacher seems to have have told the girls that wearing a skirt is more presentable than them dressing (like the boys) in trousers. I'm not comfortable with this - seems a bit "heals on the Cannes red carpet" to me. DF not bothered.

Genuinely want to know if AIBU.

If we are judging based on looks alone then I would say it would look much nicer for all the choir members to wear trousers, it just looks smarter. We can all have an opinion on how things look and no opinion is more true than any other when it comes to aesthetic preference.

I think the point is though that there are different expectations of people because of their sexual organs, something more and more people are realising is unacceptable.

Girls can look exquisite in trousers - as can women. I've just never seen them look exquisite in school uniform ones which are invariable badly cut and make even the most attractive girl look badly turned out. DD's school didn't even have trousers as an option and I fully supported that.

That, however, is not the argument. To be part of a choir is a privilege and it is the choir master's or mistress's prerogative to ultimately decide what the choir should wear with a little feedback from members.

If being a member of the choir is to be reduced to upset because a member can't wear trousers I imagine the person who is unhappy about attire does not particularly want to be in the choir and does not sufficiently respect the privilege to remain there.

The member of staff involved is putting in effort and organisation and skill to make this happen. I think it's really disappointing that some people would want to start whingeing about the trouser argument instead of focusing on the singing.

I'd pick my battles, and consider it a 'costume' for a special performance. As long as it didn't involve me buying something special, then I'd roll my eyes and move on.

I have a deformed leg that I wear trousers to cover as I don't like it being stared at. I love to sing but I guess I wouldn't deserve to be in a choir because of my chosen attire.

It's stupid, in what way are skirts smarter? And if so why not have them all in kilts? I suppose she is thinking more traditional which is quite different.

"To sing with good voice requires exquisite deportment to get the best from the voice and with that goes an exquisite appearance."

BeauforBelle so you're telling me that when my professional opera singer friends and I (or any other opera/musical theatre performers) are playing roles where they have to look dirty, haggard and unkempt that their vocal sound is not as exquisite as it is when they are in full beautiful concert dress?!?!?
No it's society's expectations that change things here! I can't really say if op is is BU or not as I can see many factors to this decision, though really it's bowing to society and gender stereotyping to force the girls to wear skirts. Personally, unless I am in costume as a character, I sing far better myself when I'm in trousers as I feel more comfortable and to get the best out of the voice you have to feel 'good'. This could either be by looking glamorous in a skirt or dress if they make you feel good, or comfortable in smart trousers.

Oh and I'm a singer myself!

'Costume' maybe, but singing in a school choir being such a privilege!? Whatever!

If this was a professional choir than yes, what the Choir mistress says goes, however it is not, it's a school choir that the students are presumably in for fun! I see no reason why the Choir mistress shouldn't at least be questioned about the issue. What about any girls who always wear trousers to school but can't afford a skirt they will only wear for choir performances? Should they be chucked out of the choir because they should be so grateful of the privilege of being in it that they scrimp and save to get a decent skirt? (Reasonable length smart skirts of the type I think the choir mistress is thinking of are actually hard to find cheaply.)
Give over!

Way back in 1989, a male, older manager told me to stop wearing (smart) trousers to work. It was a male dominated industry but I wore them with jackets and looked smart. Even then I knew he couldn't say that, but when I told him so, he wasn't happy and responded rather sharply. I still remember the unjustice I felt and had to wear skirts from then on

I think the only thing that should be the issue is whether the girls all wear skirts or whether they all wear trousers. A mix of both wouldn't look so good in a choir.

I would be bothered by this, but would only do anything about it if DD was equally bothered.

I think it would look smarter for either all of the kids to wear trousers or girls skirts, boys trousers. What wouldn't look smart would be if say ten girls wore trousers and three girls wore skirts. Maybe that's what the teacher is trying to avoid.

I think you know what I'm trying to say dramaQueen. This is about belonging as part of a team, not as an individual. Being part of the team is accepting the team's ethos.

I suppose you would say that it doesn't matter if everyone starts wearing their own sports stuff for the netball team or hockey team because they will play better if they can wear their skinny shorts with the lime green stripe down the side rather than the team strip.

The argument about the child whose parents can't afford a skirt hacks me off too - I'm sure the office will have a spare skirt in that case. Or the parents could buy a second hand one in the second hand sales for such events.

Wouldn't you rather the focus was on the quality of the choir or any other team rather than a pc argument over trousers or kit.

I'd always keep my powder dry to go in all guns blazing over the quality of teaching or a significant pastoral issue rather than the uniform that I signed up to when I accepted the place.

Beaufort will you meet me half way? I fully understand your points about team spirit, unity and not pissing off the people giving up their time so that you can be part of a choir. I also understand the importance of tradition and doing things to a high standard.

BUT the tradition that girls wear skirts and boys trousers is inherently sexist- and designed so that girls look 'nice' for the benefit of other people not themselves.

I'm not saying anyone should go in 'all guns blazing' but I do think this fact benefits from acknowledgement.

What do you think?

Trouser wearing for girls is not a "PC" argument. I don't know about you but I feel quite vulnerable when I wear a skirt with no tights, even when the skirt is knee length. Skirts are not practical garments.

When I was at school, I always felt outraged that I wasn't allowed to wear trousers like the boys. So on the one hand I do feel the irritation.

On the other hand, I think a choir or whatever would look neater if all the girls were dressed the same, be that in trousers or in skirts, and the boys all dressed the same, be that trousers or skirts. (But of course in reality for the boys it is always going to be trousers.)

In the area that I live, it wouldn't be possibly to specify trousers for all the girls, because many girls aren't allowed to wear trousers for religious reasons, so to have all the girls the same would mean that the uniform would have to be skirts. None of the secondary schools where I am allow girls to wear trousers, presumably for that very reason.

But I'm guessing that in other parts of the UK there would be girls who are compelled to wear trousers rather than a skirt, also for religious reasons? So I can see that a skirts for all rule wouldn't work there.

It is a bit of a minefield.

Beaufort, sports teams wear the same uniform so that they can pick each other out easily on the field. That isn't too much of a necessity in a choir. I'm all for the focus being on the quality of the choir, which is precisely why the teacher shouldn't be making up unnecessary rules about what people wear. As for the suggestion that parents should buy second hand skirts - you do realise that for some even that cost would be far too much, particularly for something their daughter may wear only once or twice?

Happy to meet you half way. I just don't understand the issue about skirts being disempowering. I love wearing skirts and feel more comfortable wearing them than wearing trousers. I particularly think that school trousers look almost without exception awful. They never fit, they are never quite the right length, they never hang well. I would hate to wear such an ugly garment if I am perfectly honest and have always been pleased my dd didn't want to wear them either.

I have never felt vulnerable wearing a skirt sweet. In fact I'd say they cover the bottom (a sexual part of the body) and the thighs too and can be more modest than tight trousers.

Perhaps my dd and I are more unusual. My dd (17) likes wearing dresses and has several. She finds them more comfortable than skirts and trousers. We both dress for ourselves. My dd in particular because she is independent and feisty and doesn't have to be like all her friends in belt length skirts, skin tight skinnies or shorter than short shorts with her bum cheeks on view.

I sort of get the argument about the trousers and equality but actually most of dd's friends who argue the trouser point are exactly the same girls who dress extremely sexually. .

I wouldn't have an issue if the rule was "everyone in trousers" but I still think somebody would complain about that too and I think it dilutes the joy of doing anything a team or a group and just enjoying anything for what it is.

Beau - of course I can see your point about working as a team and a uniform being a uniform. (Though with sports I think your argument is a little invalid as in that instance it's very important to tell at a glance who is in your team - not so much in a choir!) Also if that was really all you were saying then why not say just that instead of all the 'exquisite singing comes with exquisite appearance' bunkum?
I also doubt the school would actually have spare skirts for choir use (I know mine wouldn't!) and often second hand sales do not have skirts, at least not any that would necessarily look smarter than trousers.

Again though, I see no reason why the choir mistress should not be questioned on this - team 'ethos' and team 'dress' are not totally interconnected! I'm not saying the DD should be a rebel and go in trousers, she most definitely should not, but it is not unreasonable to question the motives and promote discussion. The dress code should be adhered to, but it doesn't make it right and I think that's the point being made here.

I suppose you would say that it doesn't matter if everyone starts wearing their own sports stuff for the netball team or hockey team because they will play better if they can wear their skinny shorts with the lime green stripe down the side rather than the team strip.

Not a comparison. Obviously.

A comparsion would be allowing all the blonde girls in the team to continue wearing the team strip as they have been doing all year but making the brunette girls wear an additional or alternative item that restricts their movement and makes them self conscious and physically uncomfortable.

A skirt would not be acceptable clothing for some faiths (unless trousers were underneath or a floor length skirt).
A good solution would be gor the choir (the team) to actually agree together (perhaps being supplied with some images of competition choirs). There are plenty of pro choirs where all men and women wear formal trousers. There are also ones that don't. A unified look can be achieved in other ways.

rather than the uniform that I signed up to when I accepted the place.

These girls have been wearing trousers all year. I will bet you anything the agreement that was signed stated skirts or trousers for girls.

Beau - cross post with your later posts..... You have made wonderful points in them! (particularly about ugly tight school trousers!)

I think you and your DD are great being so comfortable in skirts, but not all women are which is why we like the choice. Again though as with trousers it's the 'type' of skirt and I think (as is the case with this choir) and argument of 'neatness' or 'smartness' without a particular type of skirt or trouser being specified will fall flat on its face! (Of course specifying a type would be an even bigger minefield of parents having to get new stuff etc so very impractical which is why having a looser specification such as 'smart black bottoms and white shirt/blouse' is IMHO better.)

dd's friends who argue the trouser point are exactly the same girls who dress extremely sexually.

Oh please! They dont dress "sexually" YOU attribute your own personal hang ups to their clothing and intentions.

I also dont get this idea that it is neater if all the girls are wearing the same. That is still treating them due to gender! Why must they be grouped by gender and all look the same by virtue of posessing a uterus?

YANBU - the teacher is sexist.

Clearly its sexism because it just doesn't make sense to say its 'neater' to have a mixture of skirts and trousers. Esp not when the skirts are different lengths/styles and accompanied by a variety of bare legs/black tights/American tan tights/varying socks.

I don't think the fact that the teacher is running a choir (possibly as part of her job or unpaid, either way) means she gets to dictate sexist dress codes and everyone should just put up.

Its outdated too. Most choirs specify a colour code eg black on the bottom white on the top.

Beaufort, its nice that you're so comfortable in skirts. Me too. But its not neater and the sports analogy really doesn't work. And its sexist - particularly where the reason given doesn't make any sense. "Everyone in trousers" gives much less to argue about but I don't think that's what the OP was suggesting - more or a choice.

of course Yanbu.

do they have to sit like "ladees" so those watching can't see up their skirts.

ridiculous. trousers look smart too.