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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that a 23k benefits cap will drive some families in the SE

987 replies

Minifingers9 · 28/05/2015 11:14

... Into destitution?

I live in a pretty unappealing and comparatively cheap part of greater London but you can't get a 3 bedroom rental for under £1400 a month.
If we lost our jobs we wouldn't be able to live on 23k a year as a family of 5. Not when 15k of it was going on rent.
Why don't they have regional benefit caps?

OP posts:

Charis1 · 29/05/2015 10:06

I think this is it, if you work, and pay mortgage, and childcare ,and student loans, and insurance, and council tax, and have a small amount left over, you value that small amount because you earnt it. if it is just handed to you on a silver platter you look at it and want more.

TTWK · 29/05/2015 10:10

TTWK, they don't. As rent prices go up they will be forced to move somewhere else to have more income. Are you forgetting the £23k includes HB for rent? If they have 3 children to clothe & feed and their rent is £1500 a month for a 3 bedroom property - that leaves them with £400 for the month to spend on everything else that isn't rent - food, clothes, toiletries, essentials. So yeah, they'll have to move so the rent goes down & they have more after it to feed themselves.

I know all that. The OP and others are suggesting it's unfair to have a cap, and that people on benefits should get to carry on living in C. London if that's where they are, regardless of the cost to the rest of us. That's what this thread is about!

LotusLight · 29/05/2015 10:10

Yes, you do get benefits claimants only looking at what they have left after paying for housing whereas the rest of us who work full time take our net pay after tax as what we have and then what we spend on clothing, food, housing, childcare is spending our money. One my adult children just emailed me her payslip to check it was correct (it was). £20k tax a year. It's so high. Now of course she's not poor and she work very hard full time in London at least 10 hours a day and so far has no children so no childcare costs but I don't think people on benefits realise how much of the pay of workers is taken in tax and national insurance. It's enormous. Even my post man son who gets up at 5am every day and works pretty hard pays a fair bit of tax so those of us who do pay tax are very keen there is a massive incentive on benefits claimants for both in a couple to work full time.

butterflyballs · 29/05/2015 10:11

I don't know why we only get 220. That's just what we get. We have money taken out for csa so that's 10 but basically we get that and I've never thought it was wrong. We haven't claimed carers as I was only awarded pip in December and my dp is desperately hoping he will be fit enough to go back to work soon.

SoonToBeSix · 29/05/2015 10:12

TTWK no I haven't missed the point. Regardless of where in the country they live there will be a small number of families whose children suffer as a result of the cap.

PtolemysNeedle · 29/05/2015 10:14

I agree with that Lotus, I think a lot of people who have never paid any tax other than vat out of their benefits have absolutely no idea how much most of us pay in tax. And it's not just income tax either.

BarbarianMum · 29/05/2015 10:15

The number of children is (multiple births aside) a choice you make. Pretty sick of people making the choice to have a large family and no savings then complaining that the state isn't running to the rescue fast enough when things go tits up. We all know that things like ill health and unemployment are possibilities so they should figure into your plans is you want 3,4,5 + kids.

LotusLight · 29/05/2015 10:15

Soon, their children will only suffer (if you regard living in a smaller space which those without benefits often "suffer" as suffering) if the parents choose not to get jobs or insist on not moving. In other words the parents cause any suffering.

PtolemysNeedle · 29/05/2015 10:16

Children will not suffer because of the cap. They may suffer because of the choices their parents made, but they won't suffer because their parents can 'only' get £23,000 in benefits.

LuluJakey1 · 29/05/2015 10:21

tethersend - I absolutely support the idea of a welfare state - for those who are elderly, sick and disabled . Also to provide a level of support to those who can work but are temporarily out of work.I would happily pay more taxes and NI for that and the NHS and Education.
'Why should others subsidise you?' is for many posters here (imo) not aimed at the people I have mentioned above, it is the feeling lots of posters have about the people who are given more by the welfare state than lots of others earn (and then pay tax and NI on). That is unjust. There are jobs. There is also a problem in many areas of the country with a culture of worklessness- people who do not want to work because they have life not working that they prefer.
The welfare state was never, ever intended to create that culture. I know that is simplistic to say the welfare state has created it but it has contributed to it significantly. It is a culture where those people ( and remember I am not including everyone who claims benefits here) feel entitled to have a standard of living provided for them by the state that is equal to, or better than, that of many people who work. In my view that is just wrong and we should not be allowing that to happen.
If anyone living only on benefits can afford things like new iphones, to buy cars,huge tvs, Sky packages, holidays etc, there is something very wrong because they clearly have extra income that is providing items that cost a lot of money to buy and use. So you have couples who work and earn very little who pay tax and can't afford those things for their own family, subsidising a welfare state that pays benefits to some who have never worked or contributed but do get enough to have those things. That is why people get annoyed and begrudge benefits.

Original poster

Minifingers9 · 29/05/2015 10:21

"I know all that. The OP and others are suggesting it's unfair to have a cap, and that people on benefits should get to carry on living in C. London"

I'm NOT saying that there shouldn't be a cap!

I'm also not saying that we should be paying central London rents.

This isn't about central London - this is the WHOLE OF THE SOUTH EAST!

The average rent in the SE is 1.5K monthly for a three bedroom home. And actually I don't think that figure (which I got from Zoopla) is distorted by central London rent prices. I'm in a rough part of zone 5, and that's typically what you pay for a 3 bedroom flat or house.

If you go out as far as Kent you can find a three bed for about £900 a month, but the commuting costs into Zone 1 are then 6K a year.

OP posts:

SoonToBeSix · 29/05/2015 10:25

Butterfly hope your dh gets well enough to work soon. I would encourage him to claim carers in the mean time. Your income seem a lot lower than it should be unless you mean £220 ESA is weekly. Otherwise you are below the legal minimum income for someone with a disability.

PtolemysNeedle · 29/05/2015 10:26

But you won't need to commute if you're not working.

SaucyJack · 29/05/2015 10:28

At the risk of repeating myself......

If you can't afford a three-bed on your income, then you squash yourself into a two-bed like plenty of other people have to do.

SoonToBeSix · 29/05/2015 10:28

PtolemysNeedle no the majority of parents do not choose unemployment.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 29/05/2015 10:29

Minifingers
Don't worry. The non working poor can all just be moved out of Greater London and may be even SE England. I'm sure no other part of the country will mind if London councils carry on shipping vulnerable and poor people out to them.
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/14/young-single-mothers-focus-e15-newham-rehoused

PtolemysNeedle · 29/05/2015 10:32

I didn't say they did. I implied that parents choose how many children they have, which is true. The only children that would be likely to suffer with a tax free household income of £23k are going to be in families where the parents have chosen to have a lot of children.

SoonToBeSix · 29/05/2015 10:36

Yes but it's not a bad choice if the parents were earning at the time.

Original poster

Minifingers9 · 29/05/2015 10:36

"But you won't need to commute if you're not working."

I'm an employed homeowner, so this is all hypothetical for me!

If I was renting at an average local cost, and we found ourselves out of work, you are saying that we should up sticks, try to find a rental maybe 50 or 60 miles away in a cheaper area, take all three children out of school and find them all new places in different schools, leave DH's elderly disabled parents under the care of social services to fill DH's shoes (he helps care for his parents), and then try to seek new work in an area of much higher unemployment than where we are currently, because that would be sensible, reasonable and good value for the tax payer?

OP posts:

TTWK · 29/05/2015 10:37

Children will not suffer because of the cap. They may suffer because of the choices their parents made, but they won't suffer because their parents can 'only' get £23,000 in benefits.

100% right. And some children also suffer because both parents work all hours to keep a roof over their heads. So don't give me all this "the cap will hurt children" emotional claptrap. Adults get to make choices.

Original poster

Minifingers9 · 29/05/2015 10:39

"The only children that would be likely to suffer with a tax free household income of £23k are going to be in families where the parents have chosen to have a lot of children."

I know families with lots of children who will be severely affected by this cap.

I'm dreading seeing the impact it will have on the children, who I know, care about, have seen growing up, who are friends of my children.

But hey ho, who cares about the well being of very poor children, when there are massive cuts to inheritance tax which need to be made and paid for.......

OP posts:

tethersend · 29/05/2015 10:39

"The only children that would be likely to suffer with a tax free household income of £23k are going to be in families where the parents have chosen to have a lot of children."

Well, FUCK THEM then.

Christ.

woodhill · 29/05/2015 10:40

well said Lukey

MrsDeVere · 29/05/2015 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 29/05/2015 10:42

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-victims-tory-welfare-cap-5780398

Looks like a family suffering to me. With a dad who has applied for 100s of jobs unsuccessfully since being made redundant. People will probably be glad they are suffering though judging by this thread

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