To think that a 23k benefits cap will drive some families in the SE

[Minifingers9]

... Into destitution?

I live in a pretty unappealing and comparatively cheap part of greater London but you can't get a 3 bedroom rental for under £1400 a month.
If we lost our jobs we wouldn't be able to live on 23k a year as a family of 5. Not when 15k of it was going on rent.
Why don't they have regional benefit caps?

CunfuddledAlways you spend £100 per week on food, clothing, transport , entertainment, school trips, gas, electricity, water, telephone, internet, council tax for a family of five? You are either lying or your children are not adequately cared for.

The youngest child turning 5 years old I meant, people can't keep having babies forever !

You can certainly bear children for a long time, though.

I totally support the benefit cap. Even after it is lowered it will be the equivalent of a £29k per year income. I'd imagine anyone who goes to work and earns £29k per year wonders why they bother.

To those saying "where are the cleaners etc supposed to live?". Surely this is not the taxpayers responsibility. If the rich want cleaners they will have to pay them a wage that makes it affordable for them to clean for them, not have low wages propped up by other taxpayers who may not be able to afford to live in London?

The disabled are effected by the benefit cap. If you receive ESA unless you are in the support group the cap will apply. The government have deemed you too sick to work yet still apply the cap to " encourage people to work"

vitamink workers earning 29k would receive that amount regardless of their rent costs or number of children. That's why they bother.

A new teacher earns £21,000 before tax and NI. They would have to teach about 5 or 6 years to earn £30,000 before tax and NI. That is how much £23000 of benefits equates to. Why should anyone be given that for doing nothing? It is way above minimum wage.

With 3dcs that's 15 years living on benefits, as this mum is only in her late 20s now what to say she won't have more dcs with the dp she claims doesn't live with them so she can prolong her non working status.

I find it really difficult. I loathe the Tories, but equally I really struggle with a family receiving so much money for nothing (disabilities excluded).

You need to have a reasonably well paid job to bring home that much, after tax etc.

We have had to move twice for work. My entire life down the pan twice. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but nor do I think the state should provide indefinitely just so you don't have to move somewhere you could afford on your own.

To those saying "where are the cleaners etc supposed to live?". Surely this is not the taxpayers responsibility. If the rich want cleaners they will have to pay them a wage that makes it affordable for them to clean for them, not have low wages propped up by other taxpayers who may not be able to afford to live in London?

I pay my cleaner about £12/hour (London). She had a recent hiccup with a South American woman who fired her for 12 hours of work/week without notice, and I offered to pick up the slack. She never exercised the option, I got a call from a guy checking her references and that was that, she massaged her hours with me to work him and and once again she's fine.

She seems happy and solvent. On the rare occasions that i've paid her late, she certainly does not seem to care.

workers earning 29k would receive that amount regardless of their rent costs or number of children. That's why they bother.

They also have the prospect of increasing their wages, a reason to get up in the morning, people do see, places to go, things to to do.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of a benefits cap, not working is depressing.

A lot of people haven't had a pay rise for quite a long time so increasing your wages isn't always an option. And you certainly won't be paid more by your employer if you have another child or move to a more expensive property. I fully support the overhaul of the benefits system. It's gone crazy.

Blossom I don't blame you especially if the person you mention doesn't work and gets free childcare

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of a benefits cap, not working is depressing.

I hear this a lot on MN. It it true that for people in "rewarding" careers, not working is depressing. It becomes a lot more complicated when the discussion changes to street cleaners, fast food workers, stocking shelves, etc. These are important jobs that we all rely upon, but they simply don't pay enough.

These are the people that are making "to work or not to work" decisions.

The average family gets nowhere near £23k on benefits.

We get: ESA as a couple, ctc for my two children, ct benefit (we still need to pay some of it), cb and PIP for me.

In total we get approximately £13-14k a year. We get no housing benefit as we have a mortgage, we still have all our bills to pay, travel costs for teen to get her to school and have a car to get us to hospital appointments. I don't get a high rate OR mobility so no free car. We do not live a life of luxury and I don't understand why people think if they give up a job they will just get handed £23k. It doesn't work like that.

sorry but i cant see how you are only getting £13-14k tops especially as you are on ESA and PIP

im on ESA support and am single with 3 dc's,also get PIP enhanced and i get substantially more,i dont get HB either

These are the people that are making "to work or not to work" decisions.

And yet, these are the positions that are over subscribed with job applicants.

Be careful what you wish for as it will inevitably just be a can kicking problem.

This isn't a time for a can kicking exercise we need to understand the long term benefits for our children.

It's not just people in low paid jobs, educated people in professional jobs are still struggling along, especially in the public sector.

It depends on how wide a net you cast as public sector, at the lower end of the spectrum the public sector worker is generally better paid with substantially more benefits long term than those in the private sector.

Goodbyetoallofthat- your post sums up precisely why there needs to be a far bigger gap between what you can receive on benefits, and What you could earn in a minimum wage job.

I get out of bed in the morning not just for my pay cheque, but because I have a career. It is varied and interesting, sometimes challenging, and above all very useful to society. If I was doing a boring mundane job, my only motivation for doing it would be to pay the bills, therefore it makes sense that NMW needs to be substantially higher than benefits.

But NMW is substantially higher than benefits.

I am a Tory and would agree the benefits are much better than in the public sector, pensions, sick leave etc, but the outright pay isn't as good. I could probably earn about 5k more in the private sector, but I love my industry.

Luckily my boyfriend earns well in private, but if he has a day off ill he's not paid etc, so swings and roundabouts.

No, it's not substantially higher, unless you have an odd definition of what substantial means

NMW £252 per week JSA £73 a week . That's my definition of substantial.

I have no alternative definition of substantial, when you take a job the benefits are included in the package.

You find a low end private sector job in the private sector that is better paid (including benefits) than an equivalent private sector job and we can then discuss the parameters of substantail.

All this talk of being able to find a private sector job for more money is being disingenuous to what was attractive at the point of employment. Not everyone who works for the public sector works for the good of the people, and not everyone who works for the public sector could earn more in the private sector either.

And I'm not a tory voter.

So you're choosing to look at JSA for a single adult? I think you'll find the majority of people on benefits are in receipt of plenty of other top ups.
The fact is, it's possible nowadays to have a lifestyle without working, or working very part time (and remember 16 hours is very part time, which is not substantially different to those working full time. The overhaul of the welfare system is long overdue and will hopefully do away with these marginal differences which occur when you've got all sorts of fringe benefits (free dental care and so on) attached to certain benefits. And above all, NMW need to be far higher.