... to think that the Lib Dems should hang their heads in shame?

[sconequeen]

I say this because

...Lib Dem MP Alastair Carmichael (then Secretary of State for Scotland) not only smeared Scotland's First Minister during the General Election but then blatantly lied to the press about doing so, only confessing when a formal enquiry identified him as the source of the leaf safely after the GE had taken place.

... former Lib Dem MP Sir Malcolm Bruce defended him on the Radio 4 "Today" programme this morning by saying it was OK for Carmichael to do it because " if you cleared all the liars out of the House of Commons there would be nobody left"

... voters in Orkney and Shetland are so frustrated that they have already raised over £20,000 in just 24 hours of crowdfunding to challenge Carmichael's election as MP.

And yet the Lib Dem hierarchy (or what is left of it) still refuse to acknowledge that there is anything wrong?

Everyone else thinks it's OK then?

Yes, Carmichael is duplicitous and so are the LDs.

His lies aren't nearly as pernicious as the SNP's though. Still waiting for Mr Salmond to publish that legal advice.

Well, Salmond didn't actually say that the advice was from the EU...

Carmichael's case is different IMO because he not only leaked false info with the intention of smearing someone but that he then blatantly lied about doing it, and stood by while an enquiry took place costing an undisclosed amount of public money. And the Lib Dem hierarchy are either silent or else doing a Malcolm Bruce and coming out with the most ridiculous excuses possible.

Carmichael has shown he cannot be trusted. I hope his constituents get the chance of a by-election.

Malcolm Bruce is right about one thing - almost all politicians are lying and mostly they get away with it. One reason they get away with it is that far too many people only get upset when it is politicians on the "other side" who are lying - as this very short thread already shows.

I would be very happy to hold any lying MP to account, regardless of party. I hope the "People v Carmichael" crowd-funding for a legal challenge is successful as I think it would serve as a salutary warning for any other politician tempted to be "economical with the truth".

You're right. Carmichael's case is different. What he did is, unfortunately, relatively typical for politicians.

Salmond's, by contrast, is much worse. He told Holyrood that he had advice from the Law Officers that Scotland would, on independence, continue in the EU. Given the magnitude of what was at stake, it is several orders of magnitude more disgraceful.

I think the claim to be entitled to a currency union was lies too. He must have known he wasn't legally entitled to it.

And I see today that Nicola Sturgeon is claiming that English Votes for English Laws will prevent Scottish MPs from voting on the NHS budget. She must surely know that the budget is a UK-wide matter. So why is she saying this?

YANBU, op, and I hope Orkney and Shetland oust him. We should expect far more from our politicians than this.

I am no fan of the SNP, but I think Alistair Carmichael ' s behaviour in lying directly about the leak was terrible and, I suspect, motivated by the knowledge that if he told the truth he would lose his seat. Sir Malcolm Bruce ' s defence of him was pathetic. I think that, particularly as he only won his seat by 800 votes, there should be a by - election and am glad the new rules mean this is a possibility. He treated his electorate with contempt.

On the point about English votes for English laws, my understanding is that the Scottish NHS budget is fully devolved so there is certainly an argument that Scottish MPs would not be able to vote on NHS budget issues that remain within Westminster ' s remit.

Carmichael leaked something that was true, then lied about it. Not good.

Salmond lied full stop. Much worse.

If I leaked a confidential company document to the press, (or authorised someone else to) I'd be sacked on the spot.

Saying 'sorry' and taking a pay cut really wouldn't cut it.

It is beyond me why politicians think they should be held to different standards.

I heard Sir Malcolm Bruce's radio interview and was so disappointed with him.

I have voted Lib Dem more than any other party through my life and they keep making it harder and harder for me to think that I'll ever be prepared to vote for them again.

Salmond and Russell lied about cuts to College funding. They were found out & had to come back into Parliament with a big grovelling 'our mistake' apology.

So yes, it seems Malcolm Bruce is correct, politicians lie and if they get caught they say sorry and then it goes away.

I didn't say he wasn't correct what I said the it was disappointing he thought it was ok.

Mythical

Actually Carmichael leaked something that was untrue and then denied it. The document even stated that the civil servant who wrote it doubted that it was true but this is what he had heard second hand from someone who had supposedly been at the meeting. Both Sturgeon and the French ambassador denied that this conversation ever took place.

We are used to politicians claiming their shit smells of roses and that no other party can be trusted with the TV remote, never mind the economy.
That's the usual lies from politicians, whenever their lips move.

Carmichael is in deep trouble because he went far beyond the usual boundaries:

. He leaked to smear a specific politician leading a rival party. Then he lied about doing so and was found out.
So not a general smear about a party, but a personal one. Coincidentally, his intended victim had totally ouclassed and humiliated him in a debate during the Scottish Referendum. Just politics, or revenge too ?

. It was a lie. The French ambassador wouldn't lie to protect a UK regional politician (unless you live in tinfoil hat territory)
Carmichael might or might not have known at the time that it was untrue.
But even if you believe < eyes tinfoil > that Sturgeon wanted the Tories to win, it is a lie that she said so in that meeting.

. The French are miffed at being involved. Carmichael seriously crossed a line by embroiling foreign diplomats in UK party politics. He's put a civil servant in a stressful situation too.

. The smear was about something simple but dramatic, that the public can understand, rather than complicated (and boring to rUK) Scottish finance, legal or EU matters

. He wasted £1.4 million on an enquiry to find the leaker and then delayed the enquiry results until after the election.

. His own constituents are pissed off and trying to kick him out. They'll probably have their day in court and might succeed in forcing a by-election.
They might still vote for another Liberal candidate, but currently he is making the FibDem brand toxic in Scotland - so his colleagues may decide to turn on him.

. Worst of all, he may have contravened some laws, or at least skated around the edges: the police are currently investigating his actions Guardian