To be glad that the dark side of the Duggar family (19 Kids and Counting) has finally been exposed? *trigger warning*

[TheMustard]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I had a skim, but couldn't find one.

It's been confirmed in newly released police reports that the eldest Duggar son sexually abused young girls, including his sisters, as a teenager.

And for years they have been touted as a wholesome, Christian family, and held up as a good example of "perfect" family life. But, clearly, the young women in particular in this family have suffered horribly throughout their childhoods, but have remained trapped in the family's cult-like church movement. And a television network was happily recording them and marketing them as such the whole time, when they must have known what had happened.

It has previously bothered me that some people I know said that they liked them, and that the children seemed to be happy, when they obviously lived such a restricted lifestyle, and had little choice in their situation. Add to that the highly offensive messages they endorse politically, such as wishing to ban abortions, and warning people against allowing trans people to use the correct toilet facilities for them, because there was a danger they could molest children.

Obviously this is terrible for the victims involved, and I hope that they will now receive any help they need in healing from what has happened to them, as I doubt Jim-Bob and Michelle provided any at the time. Am I being unreasonable to be glad that they are now being exposed as a dangerous example of extreme religion gone wrong? Their network has pulled current planned airings of their show, but it's not been cancelled atm.

I am pleased that hopefully now the victims, 4 of whom seem to be his sisters, possibly as young as 4, can get some proper counselling and help them to get through this horrendous time.
His wife knew before she married him, his wife's family knew, and the parents knew and allowed him to stay in that home after just three weeks in a christian camp. How awful for the sisters to have to just put up and shut up. I just hope this will allow those poor girls to get some help, and proper help.
It makes me bloody cross, that they give off this image and lie and ignore something like this. Absolutely awful. They preach so much and apparently ignore it. They were pure before marriage and had their first kiss at the altar. Except for the molesting obviously.
There are people out there who are still defending them. I saw one say it was a mistake of a teenager exploring. Well as far as I know, most people manage to get through their teens without molesting anyone, especially their siblings.

If (God forbid) ot were my children - in the first instance I would do my damdest to find some decent, long term tberapy for both children along with some family therapy as I would be very fearful for the future of our family unit.

I don't think I would get the police involved but possibly a therapist would as a result of child protection? In which case I would do my best to support both children through that process. There may be some who think a parent should cast out the perpetrator - but my child is my child regardless of what they do and I would wonder what had happened to them to bring this about. I would never pretend it hadn't happened and would want it out in the open. I wouldn't see it as "exploration" either - I have a good friend whose whole life has been blighted by the effects of abuse by a sibling.

Agree with those who have said there is nothing to be glad about. I do find some of the comments here very intolerant of different life choices and religious beliefs - but I haven't seen the programme.

I've never heard of them, Googled and it's an American programme. I was thinking it was one of the families on the British version of "too many kids and counting" or whatever it's called. Still awful news.

I am not at all surprised at this and I don't blame the kids at all. It was a very strange, introspective environment to grow up in, and there were far too many children for the parents to supervise the nuances of their children's behaviour and interactions easily.

Frankly, I am now of the opinion those children need taking into care and bringing up more conventionally (eg attending school and college, owning their own clothes, having non-church friends, etc) and the adult victims all need serious therapy and rehousing. This is quite literally an unholy mess which cannot be solved by holding hands round the table and saying a few prayers.

We tiptoe around religion much too often. Actually what we were seeing here was incontinent fecundity and a parasitic lifestyle that relied on mass media involvement and revering the cult of personality. Not a good environment for raising children at all.

In this very interesting episode the issue of what they call 'defrauding' is dealt with, in other words the idea of tempting men when sex isn't a possibility. Michelle Duggar gives a mini-lecture on immodesty in relation to this, and the negative effect it has on men (no mention of women other than as potential temptresses).

Clearly in the light of events, based on that philosophy and its obvious failure in promoting what most people we should see as decent family values, we should all now be walking around butt naked wherever possible.

Which I am not going to do, for the sake of the neighbours, but hopefully you get my point ...

Having watched them for years they have changed a lot. The clothing has become a bit more modern, shorter skirts etc. This defrauding crap is obvious now what's happened - boys can be led on as they can't help themselves so it's up to the girl not to defraud, by all accounts this includes showing the knee! I'm sure they haven't blamed the girls who, by all accounts, were asleep during some incidents and were very young, but they do blame girls in general riling up boys, who can't help themselves. Terrible.

In later episodes the older girls seem more and more brainwashed and broken. Jana and Jinger are completely aimless, biding time until marriage. Jinger was devastated when Jessa left. She has the glassy stare of someone programmed properly to give the right answer to questions. All original thought and feelings have been forced out of them. Their lives have been so insular they wouldn't know how to break free.

Something else I noticed with that clip - the cameramen were asking Joy-Anna quite direct questions that would maybe get them to stop and think; they don't do that anymore - there's a lot more pandering to them and less searching questions. They've foisted religion on to the kids so that they know no different and they only mix with like minded people so they can't question anything - no school, no friends outside the church, all contact vetted for the girls. It's not like being religious over here where you quietly get on with going to church and keeping your beliefs to yourself, it's in your face every minute in these communities - nothing happens without God's involvement.

I think Jim Bob has a lot to answer for. He wanted this show. After what happened with Josh the last thing he should have done is brought the family to the public's attention. I don't think the show and what it's brought them is in the spirit of what they believe in. They're rolling in it now - new cars, nice houses, travel, new everything, girls with little time on their hands but to do their hair and make-up. What a dreadful life. The older girls have had 20 years of drudgery already as I see Michelle do bugger all. Jinger said in the latest programme she does 6-8 wash loads a day! I moan at doing one. I'd love a couple to break free. I can't imagine there aren't whispered conversations about it between some of the kids. They used to focus more on them learning instruments, helping out at the local fire station, community things - it's changed a lot.

I am watching quite a lot of episodes now in order to make sense of things. I have also been struck by Michelle's decreasing involvement in the domestic side of things. There is a lot of very slow walking about passively proclaiming gratitude and that miracles are happening (frankly I would probably do the same in her position, except I can't see myself getting into that position for any number of reasons).

Meanwhile there is increasingly heavy reliance on others to run the home, care for small children, provide the means of bringing them up. As others have said, there are no difficult questions posed to the family any longer, and the religious rhetoric is disguised and remains unchallenged in all of the later interviews.

This is toxic television writ large, as the lifestyle as depicted represents a complete fiction. This is the story of what happens if you take a large, religious family and gift them the airwaves as well as a considerable uplift in their finances in return for TV exposure over a period of years.

In the meantime, I despair at the role of education here. To have children taught at the kitchen table requires significantly more educational development on the part of the mother (and father) than I think we are seeing here in the programme. The children are unquestioning and unchallenging in the lessons I am seeing here, and that is never good for optimising cognitive development. It is drill, not education.

One last point - I think it has completely put me off ever visiting Arkansas!

this blog has some interesting analysis if anyone is interested. It's written by a woman who left the evangelical/purity culture.

I wonder if in the last episode of the last series, which was 2 days before the story broke, that the Duggars were aware that the story about what happened was about to be made public. There were a few things in that interview where they were all sitting on the sofas that made me stop and think - Michelle talking about modesty and defrauding, which she hasn't for a while, Josh seemed hyper excited, laughing excitedly. Emphasis on how normal they were and an emphasis on forgiveness. I can't see TLC renewing the series, which would be a good thing, given the backlash. I wonder if child protection services will investigate - there are young kids there still, siblings and his own kids, that he has access to. They should surely investigate even if this statute of limitations has come into force.