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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Or is this normal for 4 yr old girls?!

47 replies

moochy1 · 15/05/2015 15:53

DD is 4 and her "best friend" is hateful to her! Don't get me wrong they are both feisty and my dd can stand up for herself to a certain point, but yesterday she came home from pre school crying again, because her bf had said spiteful things again and had hit her. On playdates they play well for all of 10 mins and then all hell breaks loose, the bf always starts it with horrible comments, shouting, pushing, my dd doesn't ever say mean things back or hit, but she does shout back and they end up screaming at each other. I'm fed up of giving dd 3 chances to play nicely then every time having to take away her favourite toy or carry through the threat of having to go home, when I feel like it's not even her fault, she's kind of been driven to shouting or screaming back. After another hellish 2 hrs the other day we left while the bf's mum had her hitting & screaming at her & my dd sobbing because her bf had hit her and said she hated her.

It always kicks off on play dates whereas when they're at pre school together it's more subtle, it's usually along the lines of; not letting anyone else play with dd, following them about if they do saying horrible things until they cry, she says if they tell a key worker she will hurt them, it's driven away a few good friends dd also had at pre school they are too scared to play with her! So I'm keeping up playdates with them in the meantime and telling dd she must tell a key worker, but she never does, her answer is to go and play with a little boy she likes and her bf isn't bothered by this for some reason, she will go off and play with a boy she likes, it's only with other girls.

They say they are best friends and have moments of being sweet to each other, but mostly what I witness is the bf being spiteful, shouting, snatching, saying silly things like she's the best at whatever it is they're doing, my dd will stand up for herself to a point, say she's being mean and tell me or bf's mum who tries to discipline her but it just kicks off again 10 mins later and dd is shouting back or wailing again. I've told dd we're having a break from playdates with her bf as she was so upset last time, and I was too but obv had to hide it!

Is this normal behaviour for 4 year old girls?! Aibu to want to stop this friendship? They start the same school in September and I'm dreading them being in the same class.

OP posts:

comedancing · 15/05/2015 18:33

Usually with 4 year old it's..youre not coming to my party .. .. When it's six months away or you're not my best friend any more but the hitting and aggressive stuff is unusual in my experience ..

Micah · 15/05/2015 18:33

Those who are saying is normal are just accepting and enabling this behaviour.

Girls are not vile, bitchy or whatever. If they behave that way it is because they are allowed to to so. Shrugging it off as normal or "just girls" is participating in the bad behaviour.

O/p. No it shouldn't be normal. Give your child the tools to deal with it. If she stops putting up with the behaviour the other child will stop, as it no longer gets her what she wants.

I have a zero tolerance on this kind of thing. If someone can't be nice to me (or my child) they're not a friend, let alone a best one.

MiaowTheCat · 15/05/2015 18:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Flinstones · 15/05/2015 19:13

Micah I have said it's normal but believe me over the years I have tried every angle to stop this behaviour of other girls & I do not enable it, clearly you have not experienced the bitchiness of teenagers especially girls, some of who are bitches, it's heart breaking when your daughter who is taller than you comes in crying with the tales of nastiness from school, I do not stand by & accept this but I can tell my daughter all kinds of things but am powerless to stop what others say.

Inlawsandoutlaws · 15/05/2015 19:16

I think it's normal. My DSD is 5 and my nephew is 6, they fight like cat and dog!

fustybritches · 15/05/2015 19:25

Not normal op.

My DD is 4, at her school they are taught to put their hand up (in a 'talk to the hand' way) and say, in a loud voice 'stop. I don't like it'

If I were you I'd teach her that one, stop the play dates, have a word with pre school.

LurcioAgain · 15/05/2015 19:38

Flinstones - the behaviour is common (in both sexes) - it's called bullying and it's why schools have anti-bullying policies. I think what those of us saying it's not normal are trying to say is it's not normal to tolerate it. I do feel for you and your daughter, but the behaviour, while common, is wrong, not normal.

This isn't a criticism of you btw - but it is a criticism of those on this thread saying "my 4 year old does (rather than is on the receiving end of) this sort of thing - it's normal." It's their children who grow up into teenage bullies.

OP, I know we all spend a lot of time on here bending over backwards not to pass judgement on small children. But it's okay to say "what X is doing is wrong, and real friends don't do that sort of thing to each other, so I'm not going to send you round there to play for the time being, because I don't want you to get hurt/upset. Which other friends at school/playgroup would you like me to invite round for a play instead?"

Lioninthesun · 15/05/2015 21:17

I'd ask for them to be in separate classes, thinking on it, if this were my dd and her 'pushy' friend I certainly would.

I think a lot of us are saying we have seen similar, so to that extent it is normal. I'd hate for it to be 'normal' for my child though! I would feel I had failed in some way to teach her right from wrong! I do understand some families have other things going on and perhaps not much parental involvement and even that some kids are just harder work than others, but I would at the very very least be hugely apologetic if my child acted in that way.

Micah · 15/05/2015 21:44

What Lurcio said- it is bullying.

I do think though it is seen as "girl behaviour" by parents, and teachers too, so it is not dealt with as bullying. Part of the "harmless" stereotyping of boys and girls discussed on another thread recently. I think that is shown in the o/p where this child doesn't mind her playing with boys, just other girls.

Sort it out at age 4 and let these children know it is bullying, and wrong. On both sides. Deal with it like you would bullying. Then teenagers like Flinstones poor DD won't still be dealing with it 10 years later.

I've also told my children they can say no. If someone is mean, or wants them to do something they don't want to, it's OK to say you don't want to play that, and leave. It's OK to go and find someone else to play with, or play on your own for a bit. It's not OK to stay in a situation that makes you uncomfortable, you don't enjoy, or simply don't want to be in.

As far as I know at my Dc's school there is not much of this type of behaviour, because it's not tolerated.

flora717 · 15/05/2015 21:49

I've stopped scenarios like this with both my DC's. I've made it clear that the on/off behaviour is unacceptable and if someone is being or saying unfriendly things they are not a friend (never mind all the you're my best friend). Far better to have no friends.
Children do try out very manipulative behaviours (I'll be your best friend if ...), best to discourage it as it knocks self esteem over time.

wiltingfast · 15/05/2015 21:58

I think you need to help your dd understand what sort of things a friend does and why this girl is not a friend.

And quit the play dates with her.

Honestly she's 4. She's actually little or no idea of what a best friend is. You surely don't want her thinking she is deserving of that kind of behaviour or for it to be "normal" for her?

DoMeDon · 15/05/2015 22:05

Not ok- normal is a tricky word. If others have dc like it or friends like it they will say normal. Perhaps "is this acceptable"- answer is no btw. Keep them out of class, tell nursery to deal while there and reduce contact massively.
Your dd is learning lessons in how people treat her- this is giving her a strong message she should tolerate this kinda bullshit!

saturnvista · 15/05/2015 22:15

And this is why I home school. Children are too savage to hang around in packs for long periods.

HalestormRock · 15/05/2015 22:26

I went through this with my DD. Through nursery and reception she was subjected to exactly what you describe. The school made 'allowances' for the other child as she was 'behind the other children' in her abilities.
What a bunch of toss. I encouraged my DD to play with other children, and fortunately she made some lovely friends once she had distanced herself from this horrible girl - and I know it sounds nasty to say a child is horrible - but she truly was and still is.
I feel for you OP - hopefully they will just move away from each other.

Original poster

moochy1 · 16/05/2015 11:06

Thank you for all the really positive advice, it's been a real dilemma what to do because my dd is bizarrely v attached to this girl, the bf kind of "claimed" her a year ago as her bf and at 3 they were v sweet together, didn't last long though and it's just got worse and worse since - I have to stop it now, dd thinks there is some real sacred attachment being "best friends" and always goes back to her again despite me explaining that being so unkind and hurting is not what best friends do and talking to her about her other friends, yes all 4 year olds have spats but with other friends they don't shout and scream and hit, there's the odd push, but not all the spiteful comments - I point this out to dd but she often says she still wants the bf instead - it's like she's been brain washed!

I do worry that because my dd is a strong willed and really energetic child, she wants to run around not sit and do colouring etc, that she's drawn to the more full on kids, if she has a fiesty side herself and loves being boisterous, those are def the kids she seems drawn to. But my little girl is not unkind and doesn't hurt people. I've been arranging play dates with other friends and taking a break from them with the bf! I'll def speak to the school about separate classes even though I know dd will be upset she's 4 and I'm supposed to protect her so she will have to get used to it...

The pre school are rubbish by the way, way too many kids and stressed staff, a few sen children who need one on one, there's never anyone around to pick up on things it's only when a child is screaming after being kicked or something that they notice - in hindsight I wouldn't have sent her there, but she only has half a term left before school and the school will hopefully be much more on the ball with these things!

OP posts:

Iggly · 16/05/2015 11:08

Not normal and not a girl thing. It is easy to attribute this kind of behaviour to "girls" but actually I would disagree.

I would keep them apart. It isn't working.

grapejuicerocks · 16/05/2015 11:19

Yes, separate classes will hopefully solve the problem.

You do need to empower her to not accept this treatment, be it from friends or boyfriends. Teach her to walk away and say "I will play with you when you..." I.e act/speak reasonably.

Coffee1234 · 16/05/2015 12:29

Definitely not normal. I have quite a few daughters and would be really surprised if I encountered this sort of behaviour. From a friend, anyway. Unfortunately they can sound like they're torturing each other at home, at times.

BeCool · 16/05/2015 12:38

Why are you enabling all of this by agreeing to play dates with this child?

I have a 4yo who has some quite intense interactions with girls at nursery. I teach my child she can move away if someone is horrible to her. She can play with others. Her friends cannot control what she does. I remind dd that she has choices. I think these are some if the best lessons we can teach our children.

The last thing I would be doing is agreeing to play dates.

lljkk · 16/05/2015 13:05

I remember being repeatedly horrible sometimes to specific others, when I was little.
I suppose it was a power thing, like a bad habit, because the other child let me & to a certain extent put up with it. Kids can be very forgiving, though.

I am extremely impressed that OP's DD never hits or says mean things back.

SantasLittleMonkeyButler · 16/05/2015 15:39

I would have said it sounds normal for older children - but at 4?

DD is 4 in August & has none of this with her friends (yet). They all seem to play very nicely together. I am a bit saddened to think the nastiness is only just around the corner .

My elder DCs are boys (18 & 14) and have never really had squabbles, spitefulness etc. etc. with friends whereas friends of mine with DD's tell me it happens a lot. I don't know why girls should fall out & bicker more than boys (if they actually do), but it would seem that way.

Micah · 16/05/2015 16:50

I don't know why girls should fall out & bicker more than boys (if they actually do), but it would seem that way.

Because they're allowed to. It's dismissed as normal, as pp are saying, girls being bitchy, rather than treating it as the bullying it is.

Usually it's one child. So not every girl. That one child manipulates and plays off the other children. The other children aren't told it is wrong behaviour, and to stand up against it. The power play continues and is enabled by the other children who join in because they have to choose whether to join in the power play or be excluded.

Teach your child this type of behaviour is wrong, and how to refuse to engage, and it won't be "just around the corner" :). The child who tried it in my DD's class found herself alone as all the other children refused to play, went off and played (nicely) together. She never tried it again.

Adults often send the wrong messages to girls too. Social skills are often seen as more advanced, and more important in girls. Adults will reinforce the message that they need to fit in (threads about body hair removal in primary children, for example), so the child will bend to the will of the stronger manipulative girl, as they've been taught avoiding being bullied is preferable to standing up to them.

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