AIBU to think the school shouldn't be offering places to children in other boroughs first?

[frutilla]

Many local kids, living in the parish have been refused places. But the school is offering places to kids in neighbouring boroughs and have told me they can offer places as far afield as they wish ahead of local kids.
They have refused to even tell me my DS's position on the waiting list though the council said they should tell me. Instead, they say it's a very fluid list and irrelevant.
Council admissions dept said I can fill out a complaint form but only against next year's criteria.

Are you saying that if the law changed to required faith schools to abide by anti-discrimination laws in selecting their pupils, they'd shut up shop?

Are you saying that religion would no longer be a protected characteristic under the same laws?

I don't know what Imams, Pandits, Rabbis, Priests and Trustees would decide, if it there were such a change.

I'm simply saying it would be vanishingly easy to remove the exemption that allows state-funded faith schools to select based on faith. I'm suggesting nothing else, but nice try.

I've heard many people say 'oh, but they'd sell the school land to developers' which is of course nonsense. The council would be unlikely to change the zoning so the school would have little value for anything but a school or similar educational establishments.

Also worth noting that not all faith schools discriminate. Some are not over-subscribed. Some (gasp) see the inherent unfairness of discriminating against five year olds explicitly on religion and implicitly on class and race.

I'm simply saying it would be vanishingly easy to remove the exemption that allows state-funded faith schools to select based on faith.

Exactly my earlier point and I do wonder why people are so keen to hold on to their right to discriminate. What exactly do they think will happen if they let in some more local but less religious families?

They do it because it's their school. And religious communities are lawful.

It's simple as that.

There isn't a hierarchy of equalities.

Maybe the risk of closures if their status is changed would not come about. But would you want to be the government that runs that risk? Especially as it is the RC churches (the largest backers of VA schools, and whose schools are more ethnically and economically diverse that the norm) who have been harder line about it.

(No, I'm not RC).

I'd like to see the discussion had rather than state-funded discrimination in education being treated as a sacred cow. It's not a 'religious community' in a sense that enables it to be separate from the wider community - it is counted as part of the state educational provision.

All these free schools and academies we're told are keen to set up and are looking for sites (and EFA) might be very pleased to pick up competitively-priced appropriately-zoned land with buildings already fit for purpose.

What exactly do they think will happen if they let in some more local but less religious families?

They would lose their ability to select naice children from largely supportive, organised homes and it would suddenly become obvious that what makes faith-selective schools 'better' has nothing to do with faith.

"it is counted as part of the state educational provision"

They're church establishments working in co-operation with the state, not state schools.

"All these free schools and academies we're told are keen to set up and are looking for sites (and EFA) might be very pleased to pick up competitively-priced appropriately-zoned land with buildings already fit for purpose."

They'll be sold for full market value. Where will the money come from?

I'm simply saying it would be vanishingly easy to remove the exemption that allows state-funded faith schools to select based on faith

As Meditrina says, there is a good chance that removing the ability for faith schools to prioritise (NOT select) based on faith would probably lead to the closure of all RC VA schools. That's around 10% of all schools. It is possible, but less likely in my view, that the VA CofE schools would also close.

If you doubt that would happen note that the RC church blocked an independent school local to me from becoming a free school because it would only be allowed to prioritise on faith grounds for 50% of its places. This was despite the fact that the school currently selects purely on ability with no priority for faith applicants.

So yes, it would be easy to remove the exemption but you may suddenly have to find billions of pounds to build new schools. You could, of course, give the government compulsory purchase powers over RC VA schools but that would still cost billions.

competitively-priced appropriately-zoned land

By law the trusts that own these schools must sell them for full market value if they are going to dispose of them. If that means selling them so that the school can be demolished and replaced with housing that is what they are required to do. So not competitively priced at all.

But why on earth would the council rezone for housing in those circumstances?

And to be honest, I'd rather the state did spend billions now, if it came to that, rather than letting the problem continue and grow for another 60-odd years. It would be a sensible investment in community cohesion and social mobility, apart from more practical benefits.

But why on earth would the council rezone for housing in those circumstances

They may have no choice. If the trust applied for planning permission to convert the premises to some other use (housing, industrial, retail or whatever) they would have a decent chance of winning any planning appeal. And it wouldn't even need planning permission for other D1 use.

I'd rather the state did spend billions now

Where are you going to get the money from? We are still running a huge deficit.

"But why on earth would the council rezone for housing in those circumstances?"

They may well not. Or at least not initially. But there is no hurry for the current owners to sell, and there will come a point when an otherwise unsaleable site will be considered for other use.

Indeed, but curiously can find billions for vanity projects, like-for-like Trident replacement, and other policies and projects of dubious value.

But then I don't see deficit elimination in 3 years as a particularly economically literate policy, any more than education policies that embed social stratification are going to reap economic benefits in future years.

I'm an immigrant. I'll never get my head around how many people think it's fine to let churches go unchallenged on this because the state failed to get it right decades ago, and has failed to make it right since, because what? We're worried they'll give up their ability to influence the education of their children's parishioners and the billions they receive from the state to improve properties they own?

Given the focus on RC schools here, it's interesting to look at how Catholic education operates in many other countries. Hint: the church puts its hand in its own pockets.

I'd have less of a problem if the churches made a proportionate contribution to the costs of educating the children they've prioritisef over those who would have met standard local criteria, given the non-monetary benefits to the faiths of having state-funded education. The money saved could then potentially help to deal with the negative effects of faith-based selection criteria in areas with oversubscribed schools.

How does this proposal sound? There may be all sorts wrong with it that I've not considered
Faith schools pay for each child of that particular denomination who attends their school, the State pay for each child not of that faith who attends the school?

So yes, it would be easy to remove the exemption but you may suddenly have to find billions of pounds to build new schools. You could, of course, give the government compulsory purchase powers over RC VA schools but that would still cost billions

telling the RC church they can't discriminate may well be a good reason to spend that money. If anyone else did it, what would we say? I say we do it.

Faith schools pay for each child of that particular denomination who attends their school, the State pay for each child not of that faith who attends the school?

I can live with that, but I doubt the church will.

I'd be even more generous. The church pays only for those children who wouldn't have got in had the non-faith criteria been applied.

I'm an immigrant. I'll never get my head around how many people think it's fine to let churches go unchallenged on this because the state failed to get it right decades ago, and has failed to make it right since, because what? We're worried they'll give up their ability to influence the education of their children's parishioners and the billions they receive from the state to improve properties they own?

immigrant here as well, and baffled. I think part of the problem is that, bizarrely, there are people who both support religious discrimination in schools and think it's horrid in every other part of society.

this was likely not tackled decades ago because it wasn't seen as a problem. it's a problem now and we need to face it.

I suspect a system more akin to what is in Australia might be more palatable.

There are a number of independent schools who are 'middle' range - a lot of them Catholic. They can be selective on religious grounds, but they charge fees. The Government still gives a certain amount per child, but not the same as in State Schools. So the families sending their children there pay fees. All of these schools have a religious element. None of the State Schools do.

From (very vague) memory it's about 1/3 of the equivalent of public schools (terminology different - public schools are actually state schools there).

They have to comply with the curriculum etc in much the same way as State Schools, so the government have retained a control there.

So, if a similar system were set up and the schools wanted to remain selective, then they would need to charge students £2,000 - £4,000 per year to attend and the Government subsidy would be reduced to about half.

I went to one of these, my parents could never have afforded to have sent me to a properly independent private school. The students came from very mixed backgrounds.

Cider, I'm Australian too and yes about 37% of students have private education (religious or otherwise) at some point - much more in secondary of course.

The state contributes to the education of all pupils, but any who aren't in state education have to contribute to a greater or lesser extent. And often the church schools (especially the Catholic ones) have a lot of bursaries.