To be worried about these children based on a small window into their life?

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

To start, I know I'm being a tad UR. My judgeypants are so far up my own backside they are coming out of my mouth.

DP and I went out for breakfast today. Opposite us was a family with two small children aged maybe 1ish and 2ish.
They were both filthy. No coats, no socks (not warm today and was drizzling outside) the little girls hair looked like it hadn't been brushed for days.
Both parents were eating, kids had nothing. Swigging coke out of baby bottles.

Neither parent said a single word to either child until the older one started banging her head against her high hair repeatedly and mum told her to 'shut up being annoying'. That was the only exchange the whole time.

I have a toddler, I know it's tiring, I know sometimes you forget the coat, I know they get dirty, I know they smear food in their hair and they can go from pristine to child protection messy in 0.2 seconds but it just felt like too many variables and I was left feeling very uneasy and I'm still thinking about those two babies now.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

I'm not saying they are not markers. I'm saying it's rarely ok to to treat markers as such and be as certain as so many of you are of neglect in a one off even when there are a few.

That's not being stubborn.

And im not trying to justify coke Or tea or chocolate or sweets at all

[Feminine]

Earlier in the thread, l'm sure you explained the coke as a "parenting choice"
op told us that one if the children was walking, so no shoes is a concern.
I don't think it particularly matters that the children drank coke, or ate burgers at silly o'clock...
It is the combination.
Anyway, l wouldn't assume they were being abused (in the full sense of the word) but neglected for sure.

[JockTamsonsBairns]

I agree to some extent, Op, that what you saw looks like pretty substandard parenting - I don't think anyone is saying that is the benchmark ideal. However, I come from the northside of Glasgow, one of Europe's largest estates, and what you saw is fairly routine there. Poor diet, low interaction, seventh-hand ill fitting clothes, coke/tea/irn bru in a bottle - it's all standard and unremarkable in thousands and thousands of families. It makes me wonder, and makes me curious about the typical MN demographic, that someone sees this, starts a thread about it, and lots of other concerned MN-ers suggest reporting for neglect to the nsppc. What would the Glasgow branch of the nsspcc do with a call of this nature? Start investigations into several tens of thousands of families where this is considered the norm? No, it's just not going to happen.

I live in a completely different area now, all full of Boden-clad, hummous eating kids - no question at all, this is a better standard of life for kids. But please, don't think from the inside that this type of 'snapshot' is a rarity - because it's not.

[JoffreyBaratheonFirstofHisName]

I think it's a normal reaction to be disturbed when you see this kind of thing - in a way it's worse, precisely because you know you are only seeing a snapshot, and even if you weren't there's sod all you can do about it.

We have had 18 months of living next door to people whose kids look smartly dressed, hair brushed like summat out of the 1950s, and I assume they're fed even if it does seem to be at McDonalds, daily - but having only a thin wall and a 3 foot fence between us, we hear and see stuff that constantly appalls - constant swearing, and verbal abuse - the mother calling a child "fecker" (without the e) or "idiot", threatening to "belt" it, or "knock you out" - and when we have tried to involve the authorities, repeatedly - even when we had a recording one of my kids made as proof - they had smarmed, and lied their way out of it. And even if we are believed, those kids remain in that situation. It is soul-destroying having to witness it daily, close up. But I'd feel the same way as OP if I just saw something one-off.

Maybe because I sued to work with kids in a 'deprived' area and I'd end up with these damaged kids after a few years of this 'parenting'. I get the distinct impression the SS now see people who call their kids "fecking c-word" as we have heard over, and over - as making a 'parenting style' choice and they'd probably have to set fire to the child in front of a social worker, before (minor) action would be taken.

Bottom line - no-one gives a shit except the poor sods witnessing crap parents in action. SS, and police would be out of jobs if action was actually taken.

[lambsie]

It was poor parenting but I don't think it is particularly unusual in some areas. Child in buggy with nothing on feet, drinking coke from bottle and mum ignoring child is common sight in local town centre.

[JoffreyBaratheonFirstofHisName]

I go on a local cycle track regularly and last summer, we had a number of incidents with mothers walking along, with toddlers, the mums totally ignoring the child and intent on a mobile phone whilst the child careered towards cyclists going 30 MPH, or a blind bend, or a big, loose dog.... (And this is near a posh tourist trap, so kids clutching a Greggs sausage roll are not really the demographic - more neglectful Boden clad mums more interested in their iPhone than their kid).

[DuncanQuagmire]

yes I saw some upper class poor parenting once.
the child was beautifully turned out in mini boden etc., and had a live pet lamb! but its mother ignored it and was so busy getting pissed that when the child fell and broke or sprained her arm, the mother decided not to bother going to a and e.
Should I have called SS? was this 'better' than OP's scenario? because the parents were rich and it was a posh Easter lunch do in the country?

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

duncan of course you should have called.
The socio - economic class of the family should be irellevant.

I don't think it is ok to excuse piss poor neglectful parenting as being due to income. Equally I think that there are examples when being better off is a smoke screen that covers up appalling parenting.

My EXH's sister is a fucking awful, AWFUL parent. emotionally abusive and totally unable to meet any of her 4 yo's emotional needs, or actually many of her physical ones. Shouts and screams at her, has hit her round the face, swearing at her, calling her a bastard... on and on and on.

She lives in a lovely home with a doctor for a partner and is very well spoken. I have made several reports after witnessing things and hearing second hand of things that made my blood run cold. She is very elloquent and aerodite and I think that has helped her to fall through the net.

I on the other hand am a single parent. I know lots of brilliant single parents, parents who live on very little money etc.

[DuncanQuagmire]

" duncan of course you should have called. "
yeh I couldn't really I was the poor relation at the do....you know, the scummy one that had been favoured with an invite....yes I know I am chippy

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Earlier in the thread, l'm sure you explained the coke as a "parenting choice"

That's because it is, just the same as controlled crying,ear piercing, home education,sweets,early weaning,all manor of other things that many parents feel are ok and many feel are abusive.

the op told us that one if the children was walking, so no shoes is a concern

Again this is subjective, a 2yo being carried directly from a car to a cafe with no shoes on is unlikely to be an issue,plenty of children play outside with no shoes on for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of weather without it being an issue.

I don't think it particularly matters that the children drank coke, or ate burgers at silly o'clock...
It is the combination

Burgers have pretty much nothing at all to do with anything

Anyway, l wouldn't assume they were being abused (in the full sense of the word) but neglected for sure

It's that for sure that is the problem and one that demonstrates that like most people you have very little understanding of how things like that are actually assessed. And neglect is real abuse

[Feminine]

Thank you for bonding my post needed this "most people like you" bit. Please...
I have a very good understanding of abuse/neglect. unfortunately

Still not enlightened by your clarity however.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

I was responding to your post that is all.

If you are going to quote someone it usually best to actually quote them.

I said, like most people you have little understanding of how neglect is assessed.

That means something entirely different to understanding about abuse/neglect.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

Sock, I agree that the coke is a parenting choice. I think it's a red herring.

The children had no shoes or socks on. They were wearing flimsy summer clothes with no jumpers or coats in the cold and rain. Both parents had coats on. The oldest child WALKED out of the cafe. In the rain. Barefooted.

I understand what you are trying to say. Of course you can't make a judgement based in a snap shot in time. I've bent over backwards to say that I understand that each element could have been explained. But the whole picture together concerned me.

The fact that you can't see that a toddler walking barefoot outside is a risk indicator when coupled with the other things mentioned I find baffling.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

And I do have knowledge of how neglect is assessed. Which is why I said up thread that it is the most difficult category of abuse to prove.
It takes multiple visits over prolonged periods of time.

You might meet a child who doesn't have a bed.
Then you see that they also don't have a toothbrush.
Their speech is delayed. You notice mum doesn't communicate with them much.
They are dressed in clothes inappropriate for the weather.

Just because some of those things could be explained away by parenting choices doesn't mean you wouldn't be raising concerns about that child, visiting again, listing the possible category of abuse as neglect does it?

Just because it wouldn't warrant intervention there and then, just because you wouldn't have a conclusive case there and then doesn't mean you wouldn't suspect neglect.

[shrunkenhead]

I agree that mumsnet is very "Boden-wearing hummus-eating" as a previous poster commented and neglect is no doubt v difficult to prove and a combination of factors together make up a case. But....A Glasgow resident posted that this was the norm...coke on a bottle etc etc how can these parents be educated that this is wrong? Surely not all parents on this estate are stupid enough to not realise this will rot their kids teeth!?

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Well it does if you are a total stranger in a cafe with no ability to do anything and nothing that anyone with the ability to do so can act on.

You see something worthy of an EPO or even boarderline worthy then call the police. there are other circumstances where the nspcc or childrens services hcan facilitate working out who the family are but the things you describe are not enough for that to happen.

And the shoe thing. I see loads of toddlers in spring and summer rain and shine not wearing shoes running around playing I personally am a bit of a fan of shoes but I do sometimes like to walk about without them.

You've added in the addition of summer clothes where the parents were dressed for cold that would be noteworthy for me.

I am really not saying I think anything you have described is acceptable at all nor am I saying I would approve of any of it,all I'm saying is no an actual conclusion of neglect would not be something that under those circumstances would jump into my head because I would not have the information or context required for it to do so.of course it would be on my radar but then it would be with any parent I meet. I would equally not decide someone I had seen under the same time constraints was an ok or good parent.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

Sock,

I think we might actually be arguing the same point.
Thank you for your view point. It has been really interesting.

[sconequeen]

I don't think that OP was saying that it was definitely neglect. But I think that she is right to say that it might be. Yes, any family group in that café might have had children who are being abused in some way, with no obvious signs at that point. However, the particular children OP mentions were showing a combination of things which were potentially - potentially - of concern.

I have been thinking this week about a house I leafleted for the election last week. Rubbish piled high outside the door, curtains all closed in broad daylight, and a pale, worried-looking little girl who twitched the curtains open then closed them quickly again. I have no idea what is happening in that house and I would be the first to accept that there may not be anything bad happening there at all. But I am still thinking about what I saw and hoping that, if there is a problem, that the neighbours round about would notice and report any concerns they had. So I am probably similar to OP in how she is feeling, although she probably has more justification...

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

Scone - if you read about Tiffany Wright - a 3 year old who died after severe neglect from her parents - her parents owned the local pub. Residents of the street and regulars in the pub saw her standing at her window looking forlorn regularly but didn't want to pry or say anything.

The little girl was locked in her room whilst mum was downstairs in the pub for long periods of time, or when she went out. Nobody saw the little girl downstairs. Ugh it's so sad, such a horrible story. But just shows what happens when people think 'that was odd, hope someone else has mentioned that'

[sconequeen]

Itsme..

I know. That is the type of thing that haunts me about what I saw. But at what point can you actually raise a concern when you have seen so little?

[MrsHenryCrawford]

Op-why situation would worry me too. Can you go back to the cafe and ask if they are regulars? Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they may have been hungover/munchies-this may not have been a once off occurance and they staff may know this family.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

I know. It's really really hard isn't it.

I'm actually a qualified social worker, but I don't and have never worked in child protection because I just couldn't cope with it.

I work with adults and even they give me sleepless nights!

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Sleepless nights is why I switched to DV work

[Mintyy]

Oh I think we've all seen family situations that give us cause for concern. It's a bit shit to suggest op is being wrong or judgey for that.

I was in hospital with my dd last week, saw a Mum with her two very young children in the same waiting room as us for over an hour. The only time she looked up from her phone was to snap at one of her two beautifully behaved little girls, one of whom was obviously in hospital for investigations or treatment! It made me feel sad.