To be worried about these children based on a small window into their life?

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

To start, I know I'm being a tad UR. My judgeypants are so far up my own backside they are coming out of my mouth.

DP and I went out for breakfast today. Opposite us was a family with two small children aged maybe 1ish and 2ish.
They were both filthy. No coats, no socks (not warm today and was drizzling outside) the little girls hair looked like it hadn't been brushed for days.
Both parents were eating, kids had nothing. Swigging coke out of baby bottles.

Neither parent said a single word to either child until the older one started banging her head against her high hair repeatedly and mum told her to 'shut up being annoying'. That was the only exchange the whole time.

I have a toddler, I know it's tiring, I know sometimes you forget the coat, I know they get dirty, I know they smear food in their hair and they can go from pristine to child protection messy in 0.2 seconds but it just felt like too many variables and I was left feeling very uneasy and I'm still thinking about those two babies now.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

The op was not asking us to offer opinions on if it was lazy parenting or not.

She was asking if she was being ur being worried based on a tiny window into their life

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

When did I say that based on this one hour they should be removed? Of course it takes seeing those things multiple times to identify neglect. It doesn't negate the fact that seeing it for that small window of time made me feel uneasy.

[HermioneWeasley]

Only on bloody MN would people rush to justify this.

Based on the things you describe, I'd be concerned too. Like you, I don't know what I'd do about it, but I'd feel bloody sorry for the kids. Neglect happens, it's not impossible that the OP did see a chaotic family with crap parents.

A friend of mine who is a primary school teacher once had a kid bring 2 cans of beer as his packed lunch for a school trip, because that's all there was in the house. These parents EXIST.

I think as others have said, if this is a pattern for thr family, you just have to trust that someone (GP, school etc) will raise it and refer if necessary.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

So add in not talking at a meal time and coke

It's the same thing with the addition of two parenting choices.

[Branleuse]

id feel a bit sorry for the kids too, but theres nothing you can do. Different people have different standards

[sconequeen]

OP: I agree with you. It was only a snapshot but there was a combination of things which could suggest neglect.

Posters above saying that their children have messy hair, messy faces or don't wear shoes are missing this overall point IMO.

[FluffyCubs]

Well sorry, my children have organic fair trade chocolate smeared all over their ethnics prints but I'd still never take them into a shop without shoes or socks, because their feet get COLD beyond anything else. It's lazy, yes. It takes two seconds to stick a pair of socks on a child...I used to keep spares in my glovebox. Not so bothered about shoes, it's about warmth and comfort.

[Feminine]

"parenting choice"
Theres that stupid expression again!

The children were being ignored

No socks, dirty etc....

collection of things.

Not just a glass of coke.
Not just a quiet meal.
Not socks just 'fallen off'

All of it.
Looks. sad

[SoupDragon]

If that snapshot is representative of their entire lives then yes, I would think it concerning. Seeing that snapshot as described would make me pause and wonder whether the rest of their life was like that.

Which is all the OP is doing.

I'm sure I've been in many "snapshot moments" during my years of parenting.

[sconequeen]

Sometimes a combination of certain "parenting choices" adds up to neglect...

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Op whose mentioned removing children?

People have different styles of parenting some people don't see a problem with using baby bottles after 6 months some people don't have a problem with fizzy drinks some people don't care about socks and some people don't interact at meal times even combined it's a bit odd for it to play on your mind and worry you.

[Dublinlass]

I know how you feel OP, it doesn't sound to me like you are judging rather feeling sad looking at kids like that. Before I had kids I have to admit i wouldn't have even noticed something like that, now if someone even shouts at their kids I feel sorry for.them and I shout at my own kids so.I see the irony. Where I work, there are lots of junkies that gather at the side of the road, they all have babies with them and it breaks my heart seeing now
Its just wrong :(

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

You said : all of those things would require a repeated pattern over a significant period of time to identify neglect.

Which is true. Which is why I specifically said that it was a snapshot in time and it worried me. If that is indicative of their every day lives then it does suggest neglect. The fact that the children were completely silent is not normal. It indicates that they are possibly used to being ignored. There is a difference between a child being non verbal and BOTH children being totally silent, unreal time, not smiling, nothing and parents sitting for nearly an hour without uttering a single word. That is not normal.

[Eustasiavye]

I agree it's the collection of things which is worrying. For children of that age not to be communicating is out of place. I think the head banging is a desparate grasp at attention, how awful when the only words a parent can be bothered to say to their child is to tell them off..

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

*unreasponsive - not unreal time... That was a weird auto correct!

[Eustasiavye]

I may have missed this but did the parents speak to each other?

[seaoflove]

Also OP I'm with you totally, & MN will always tell you not to judge & that one cigarette the mother is smoking is her only one all day & that one breakfast was the one out of 7 where they did not chat happily together & dress top to toe in Boden etc etc. I'm usually 100% behind the no judging part but you have instincts for a reason & they're not usually wrong!

Totally agree with this.

The extent to which Mumsnetters will come up with endless far-fetched explanations for (what seems to be) clearly dodgy or neglectful behaviour never ceases to astound me.

[VelvetRose]

Exactly Sconequeen. I've had social workers tell me that filthy dirty children in my class with recurrent headlice and torn clothes are from a family who are making a lifestyle choice. It makes me so angry. I respond "the child has NO choice". It is neglect and it is absolutely horrible.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

Unresponsive! I can spell!

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

eust not really to be fair...
The odd bit here and there but certainly not flowing conversation...

[stitch10yearson]

at that age, they should have been babbling, unless there is some disease process happening that isn't easily observable. I think the op is correct to worry about these children.
the food and the filth can just be bad parenting, particularly bad day/week etc. not a major concern.

[VelvetRose]

Some very disingenuous responses here, talking about completely different situations. Of course most kids are sometimes dirty, of course some don't wear socks and shoes, of course some kids drink coke (but how many of you would give it to a 1 and 2 year old?) and don't speak much at meal times but all of these things at the same time? That's really just like you?
Of course it isn't!

[Schmoozer]

I would be worried too OP
I think it's not a bad thing to listen to our gut feelings about things like this, if u had any details to go on, I think it would be worth reporting what u have seen, but sadly sounds like you have nothing with which you could report for a closer look at possible safeguarding issues
sounds like the kids may be suffering from neglect, but obviously a closer look is required to know that, sounds like a horrid scene to witness

[sconequeen]

It boils down to whether the child's physical, emotional and psychological needs are being met. What OP saw suggested that various of their needs were not being met on the occasion she saw them. No-one here knows whether what she saw was a one-off or typical of their everyday lives but I think it was perfectly reasonable for OP to be concerned. I would have been concerned too.

Velvetrose - I hope the social workers concerned were continuing to monitor these children.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Filthy dirty and things like that are all things that are totally subjective as are appropriate clothing.

As are things that make us a bit sad.

I feel quite sorry for children in the park wearing clothes they can't run around well in or whose parents overly fret about keeping them clean or who don't get to just sit and be because they are being activityfied constantly or who don't get a moments peace because they are being performance parented. Just because it makes me a bit sad it does not mean it's readonsble for it to do so.