To be worried about these children based on a small window into their life?

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

To start, I know I'm being a tad UR. My judgeypants are so far up my own backside they are coming out of my mouth.

DP and I went out for breakfast today. Opposite us was a family with two small children aged maybe 1ish and 2ish.
They were both filthy. No coats, no socks (not warm today and was drizzling outside) the little girls hair looked like it hadn't been brushed for days.
Both parents were eating, kids had nothing. Swigging coke out of baby bottles.

Neither parent said a single word to either child until the older one started banging her head against her high hair repeatedly and mum told her to 'shut up being annoying'. That was the only exchange the whole time.

I have a toddler, I know it's tiring, I know sometimes you forget the coat, I know they get dirty, I know they smear food in their hair and they can go from pristine to child protection messy in 0.2 seconds but it just felt like too many variables and I was left feeling very uneasy and I'm still thinking about those two babies now.

[Aermingers]

Well you're doing quite well OP, nobody has come in and berated you for discriminating against children with SN yet which is quite impressive for Mumsnet.

[VelvetRose]

Yes, in fairness, after much nagging they were scone queen. Agree it's not about rich or poor. I've worked with families from different backgrounds whose children were dirty and dressed inapproprately.

[Grapejuicerocks]

I think sometimes we are right to judge. i would have, wtih the variables the op described. One or two, just a small snapshot - all taken together does indeed, sound like shit parenting.

Unfortunately as you say, there is nothing you can do, but I would feel exactly as you do, op.

It's no good burying your head in the sand though. We know there are some kids living horrendous home lives. It is wrong to make excuses for those parents, in case it is just a snapshot. There were too many red flags in this instance.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

aermingers I've been set here biding my time waiting for it! Or 'YABU! How do you know the family weren't deaf?'

[paddymcgintysmum]

I understand you OP as it's something you felt uncomfortable with, but not definite enough to do something about. Now you can't shake it from your mind, like a bad scene from a film you wish you'd never seen.

Burger and chips could well be relevant as maybe the family had driven through the night, so not exactly breakfast but dinner/supper. They may have returned from visiting family due to a bereavement for instance. The scene sounds rather sad so could be a reason.

Kids with nothing on their feet? It's a modern way for babes to have foot covering. Mine didn't until able to walk outside.
Hair unkempt, just awoken?
Coke in a bottle could have been a total one off, pacifying them after a long journey. Head banging, tiredness? Mum berating, her tiredness?

Just trying to put it into perspective for you as you're worrying about them.

Try and get it out of your mind as there's nothing you can do.

I've just remembered my photo of child with Chicken Pox. She's 12 months at the pulling herself up stage, covered with spots, wearing only a nappy and an empty lager can next to her feet. I have no idea where the beer can came from, but it looks as suspect as this family did to you.

[Itsmethechubbyfunster1]

Thank you paddy.

Incidentally, the oldest one was walking.

[paddymcgintysmum]

From Dublinlass, "now if someone even shouts at their kids".
Sorry don't know how to quote properly.

I was shaken by some brute of a father whose child tripped in a supermarket. "Girrup yer clumsy git"

[FromSeaToShining]

my almost 2yo did not have shoes on and only one sock,she also had hummus all over her hair

You have nothing to fear. Hummus in her hair is perfectly acceptable. A nice middle-class foodstuff, very healthy and approved by one and all. If her hair had been sticky with spilled Coke, that would be another matter entirely.

On a serious note, the OP's snapshot into this family's life may indicate something worrying going on. But it is really impossible to judge one way or the other based on the description given.

[paddymcgintysmum]

Get it out of your mind OP and I say that as someone who does intervene.

Mother punched her toddler so hard in the ear, she felled her to the ground outside my premises. I was nearly lynched by her "mates" when I told her she could damage her child's hearing.

Other was irate mother suspending her toddler by one arm while screaming at him. Traffic Warden took over on that one.

I bet your littlies will have even more hugs tonight.

[YorkieButtonsizeMen]

The odd thing is I know I am pretty useless at certain aspects of parenting - I often fail to have much food in the fridge, don't cook much proper food, use the microwave too much, etc. I have a child with fillings. (lesson VERY much learned) But if I saw a thread about these things, I wouldn't come on here and start defending what to me is bad parenting. I might try and explain how it can happen with the best of intentions.

Even if I do it myself, I wouldn't defend it. I'd join in saying how bad it was, because it is.

So what anyone gets out of defending this is beyond me. Unless it's the old AIBU devil's advocate game that seems so prevalent here.

No one has so far admitted to giving their own toddler coke in a bottle. not one single poster. Why? Because they're afraid of being judged, as it's actually unacceptable? Or because it's such a poor show, they wouldn't do it anyway?

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

But it does not constitute something that we get to decide about other people's children.

Just the same as sweets or lack of sweets and the use of lollies or lack of them

[sconequeen]

But it does not constitute something that we get to decide about other people's children.

Well, actually, perhaps we don't get to decide as individuals but society does get to decide whether there is neglect. There is a legislative framework which allows this, and which allows the state to take action if it is considered to be in the best interests of the child.

[GoringBit]

I get what you're saying OP.

Weeks ago, we were in a local (busy) supermarket. A man was pushing a trolley with a toddler in the seat, and the child was sucking on the (non-sparking) end of a disposable lighter. I honestly wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it, and it really threw me.

But really, what can you do? I wondered about saying something, but what? And based on a thirty-second snapshot. I still think about it, but I need to let it go.

[theDudesmummy]

It can make you feel sad but as you have said, things are not always exactly as they seem. For example, I sometimes take DS to a Giraffe cafe. We both enjoy it as a treat, I order a burger with chips and I eat the burger while he eats the chips. I have a latte and he has tap water. It probably makes me look terribly bad mean, like I am scoffing all the good stuff and he is living on chips. But actually it's all part of managing to keep him sitting there for the whole meal (he is autistic), giving him two very favourite things (chips and tap water) is a way to do it. It's not the way we eat at home!

The Coke would really bother me though.

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

No one has so far admitted to giving their own toddler coke in a bottle. not one single poster. Why? Because they're afraid of being judged, as it's actually unacceptable? Or because it's such a poor show, they wouldn't do it anyway?

Because I honestly don't think mumsnet would be a website that people wood go in if they were the tyke to give their children coke in a bottle.

It is a sign of extremely shite parenting. In itself coke from a bottle is not going to cause a child serious damage, it is not abuse. However it absolutely is dicta ice of a type of a fucked up, can't be arsed,mind if parenting, and is probably the tip of the iceberg of poor parenting. Such people I very much doubt are going to be drawn to a website "by parents for parents"

[Idefix]

coffee I can assure that slurping coke through a baby bottle will definitely result in damage, and pain for the child.

Maybe people on a forum like mn don't see the damage caused by this but I have in the past worked with children whose teeth are blackened stumps. These stumps can be very painful desite the short root length of milk teeth. Yes they may not be the permanent teeth but early loss of these teeth can then effect the way the second teeth develop and often they are still having the same pop drinks.

These parents maybe truly ignorant despite lots of health messages on this subject, they may not be literate or health literate but it doesn't change the fact that this is neglectful.

The coke in a bottle was only one part of a whole picture that the op saw but on its own it's pretty bad IMO and in many other hcp.

[Momagain1]

What you saw was probably just poor. An awful lot of poor parenting decisions and poor 'lifestyle choices' can be improved with money. Without mobey, you sometimes have few choices, few opportunities to learn better, or a need to justify being unable to choose better as a preference despite better knowledge.

Can all of this cross the line into neglect and abuse? Sure. But the snapsot you saw today might have any number of other causes too.

This is regarding US welfare policy, but is just as true here,
i think. The UK social support systems get more depressingly like the AuS welfare system all the time.

www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/stop-judging-poor-moms-bad-policies-hurt-their-kids-not-bad-parenting/?tid=sm_fb

[Momagain1]

Argh, typos!

[MollieCoddler]

I would be worried and suspect neglect op. I think some of the other responses on here are a bit bizarre.

Did you consider having a quiet word with the cafe staff after they left? Eg. I noticed those kids, I felt a bit sorry for them. It might glean a bit of info or reassurance.
The only reassuring thing about your post is that the family were in a cafe - by that I mean they were not isolated at home. I think it is good for any family to be out and about.

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

Idefix read my post. I say "serious damage". Quite clearly coke is going to cause damage, but not serious damage, my point was that giving your young child coke in a bottle is a sign of seriously crap parenting that behind closed doors is probably far worse than coke in a bottle.

[sconequeen]

Momagain1 Yes, poverty can be a cause of child neglect but poverty doesn't excuse neglect. Children have a right to be cared for; neglect and its causes need to be addressed not accepted.

[Idefix]

What kind of serious damage does it have to be to be to equate to neglect or abuse? Like many I think a child living with daily dental pain is pretty serious damage.

Fwiw have also seen children with infections of their jawbone as a result of untreated abscesses - try telling a four year old that has emergency surgery and iv abx that the damage is not that serious.

I think part of what makes this problem so difficult and emotive is that it is really hard to call. But after many years of working with children and their parent and promoting positive parenting is that there is no one right way to be a good parent. But we help no one by being afraid to call bad parenting when we see it. Especially if this prevents a child from suffering not to serious damage however you define it.

What was and is hard for the op is that she will never know if this was a snapshot of some enduring problem these children experience or if it was a one off. It is really hard to shake that op, as it tends to haunt your thoughts.

[YorkieButtonsizeMen]

I don't think any of us has the information to judge whether the parents are poor, or stupid, or can't be bothered, or know no better.

The fact of neglect remains the same and that has to be the focus.

[Enjoyingmycoffee1981]

Completely missed my point idefix

[TendonQueen]

Agree with Fluffy and others that the competitive laissez-faire on threads like this is astounding. People are so anxious to be non-judgy (which as we all know is far worse than being a bad parent) that they come up with excuses like 'maybe they'd fed the kids first to save money' - eh? In that case they could've saved even more and eaten together at home. It's shit parenting to order food for yourselves in a cafe and nothing for your kids. The Dudesmummy's meal sharing is different - I wouldn't turn a hair at seeing a family share different things from a plate of food. I would at parents who eat while their DC don't get anything, though I'm sure I'll be told the kids probably weren't hungry, may have had allergies etc so it's all fine.

Also, love the logic that OP said she knew she was making a call on a snapshot, cue many people lecturing her that indeed, you can't judge on a snapshot, nooo, and then going on to say things like 'I have a feeling those children are just fine'. If the OP who was there can't judge on a snapshot, how does it make sense that people have only even read about this online can say 'they were fine'?