To wonder what the scots are thinking

[Ruperta]

If the exit polls are to be believed then tge Scots will have massively turned out in favour of SNP. This is less than 12 months after voting no to independence.

Why then vote SNP? Have they shot themselves in the foot or are the Scottish going to be protected from the welfare cuts that are going to be imposed on us? Are there NHS and education budgets more protected? Honest questions as I'm very confused!

Feeling very disappointed

So you stand by your comparison of the SNP with UKIP?

I don't know but then I'm not a Scot as much as I'm from Glasgow.

There seems to me to be much 'love-bombing' of those who are 'in the gang' and condescension at best to those who are not. Half of my own family are now virulently at odds with the other half with vile epithets flying from one side and a rather stunned look from the other. (They have been called Rothschild c- and Spawn of the Remembrancer and that is the least of it.) And yet, if they were to have a Damascene conversion, all would be forgiven in an instant and family unity would be restored.

Tribal solidarity seems to run strong with people and there also ssems to be some sort of 'romantic notion of Scottishness' that people are playing to.

Ubik1

No, seriously, I'm really interested in whether the SNP will support the Conservatives over the principle of mutual recognition, because I could see the Government using it as a bargaining tool for reducing harmonisation of EU law to keep the UK in the EU after a Referendum.

The principle of mutual recognition means that in EU law, you agree in advance that member states do not have to harmonise their legislation in certain areas because they agree to enforce their laws so as to respect the major points of the enabling legislation. Harmonisation is quite old fashioned now, and the Conservative Government pretty much invented the principle of mutual recognition so as to avoid joining the AFSJ full scale.

So you stand by your comparison of the SNP with UKIP?

Are you auditioning for a role as chief inquisitor then? I do find them similar in some respects, in that I don't believe the SNP are quite as socialist as they would like people to believe (or lets just say they have become polarised), and in some respects they show a few faccist tendencies (state guardians, centralisation, routinely arming police, etc.).

I'm not an expert by any means so but I'd say sectarianism is more of an issue in the western part of the central belt than the east.

That said - although Glasgow voted yes in the referendum, the vote was actually closer than you might have expected it to be:

The number of votes cast in favour of YES was 194,779
The number of votes cast in favour of No was 169,347

Those figures are taken from Glasgow City Council's website.

It's a lazy.m ( and I'm being generous here) comparison and I think you know that.

But whatever. It's all water under the bridge now .

I can't speak for 'the Scots' because as others have pointed out, people who live in Scotland have a range of views. In my own limited experience, most of my friends are lefties who wanted to vote for a progressive, egalitarian alternative to five more years of attacks on the welfare state, Trident replacement, TTiP and so on. Some of them (both yes and no voters back in September) weighed up the evidence and concluded that the SNP were that alternative. Others, including me, were less convinced - I voted Green, though I will say I felt safe in the knowledge that the SNP were a dead cert for my formerly safe Labour constituency so I could be a statistic for the party I most wanted to support. For all of us it's been something of an act of faith, as no-one really knows at the moment how deep the SNP's reinvention of itself as the party of social justice goes - in the end everyone's had to make their own judgement call.

My SNP-voting friends thought that the SNP as a progressive party would be in a position to nudge a pale pink Labour administration slightly to the left, and they wanted to be part of making that happen. The atmosphere in the place where I work and live is leaden just now, as people realise what's ahead of us and how little there really is to celebrate - which considering it's been Yellow City over the past few weeks with SNP posters everywhere you look, is remarkable.

I think I've posted before but some might find it useful when it comes to looking at identity. It should be noted that it contains sweary words.

It's a lazy.m ( and I'm being generous here) comparison and I think you know that.

That's OK Ubiq1, I think some SNP supporters make it very apparent that certain Scots are not particularly welcome to have a voice in Scotland any more. You're simply another one singing the same song, which is becoming all too familiar.

Thanks for the interesting replies on sectarianism. Its not something I know a lot about, although my grandfather was an Irish Catholic who converted to Protestant, and resolutely refused to say a single word on the matter!

I thought sectarianism originally came about because Protestant Ulster Scots, who emigrated to Scotland for work, clashed with Catholic Irish who emigrated for the same reasons?

I don't know enough about it to say Chandler. Your explanation sounds plausible.

My views on sectarianism are subjective and based purely on observation. I'm English, have lived in Scotland for nearly 20 years and was blissfully ignorant about the subject until I moved up here.

There was much 'disquiet' in Glasgow backaways because it was perceived that Irish came to Scotland in place of the many men who were away fighting in WW1 and got the jobs and the women. Ireland's neutrality in WW2 didn't ease matters for the West Coast seaports.

I don't know the whole truth of these matters so I am talking about perception only but that is a very powerful matter.

"I'm not an expert by any means so but I'd say sectarianism is more of an issue in the western part of the central belt than the east."

Hmm, yes and no...there are less clashes over here on the east coast, but I think that's just because it's a bit one sided. There's quite a strong orange order presence, but a bit of a lack of anybody to clash with (though I believe that's less true of Edinburgh itself?) so what you get is less of the animosity and trouble surrounding it, but on the other hand it's kind of taken as normal that people support orange walks and play in the flute bands.

In fact there's already been the first one this year a couple of weeks ago, they close down roads that mean half my town can't get anywhere...including me.

I'm English

I'm in Edinburgh, and I really haven't seen much evidence of sectarian behaviour - certainly nothing like Glasgow. I used to work with one chap who was involved in the Orange Order (big workplace, hundreds of people) and it was only ever discussed by others in "what an utter fuckwit" type tones

I'm wondering if Cameron played a blinder by refusing to have the Devo Max option in the Indyref? And pushing for the vote to be sooner rather than later? Or is that crediting the politicians and policymakers with is too much foresight and chess playing ability?

Statistically - most people I know think they're fuckwits too...but you tend not to say it very loudly as it's fairly intimidating and so that's taken as support.

Chandler, with respect, I find your casual linking of West of Scotland Irish diaspora to unsuccessful men to volatility and lack of consideration when it comes to voting pretty nasty.

My great grandparents came to Glasgow because of grinding poverty back home. They were faced with dogs' abuse and in some circles, if you are known to be Catholic and of Irish stock, it's still perfectly acceptable to be called a workshy Fenian/Taig, whatever. I'd love to see some evidence for the assumptions some people make about the Irish immigrants being lazy and thick when it came to work.

What I'm trying to say is please don't make these associations flippantly. Until you and your family have been on the receiving end of that prejudice, you don't know how painful and degrading it is.

AgentCooper I certainly wouldn't limit the up his own backside too much to see the truth attitude to past Irish patterns of immigration. I wouldn't even say its a peculiarly Scottish trait. But there do seem to be a plentiful supply of misogynistic men in Scotland who think the world owes them a living, and who have done very nicely out of public sector jobs that wouldn't normally attract as high a salary as they get paid. I'm sick of hearing them, whether its dominating conversations about how the world isn't run to suit them, or semi-literate rants on FB - I don't think theres any chance that particular message could go unheard.

I read an article on the past issues tonight, funnily enough from the NQ. I actually didn't realise much of this had happened until I read it:

www.educationscotland.gov.uk/higherscottishhistory/migrationandempire/experienceofimmigrants/irish.asp

The fact we spent years debating the indy question, and have voted c.50% for one party, with the remaining 50% split between the other parties does rather illustrate that we are very far from Borg like. But thanks for the casual stereotyping.

Yes sorry. In Scotland, love Scotland and didn't vote SNP. I was being sarcastic about the many sweeping accusations about the Scottish voting with one particular mindset. There are, of course, many reasons to vote SNP other than the Independence issue and there are, of course, many people in Scotland who did not vote SNP - no, really, they didn't. I wasn't casually stereotyping I was making a comment on the grouping of Scottish people on this thread and others.

Scotland were much more politically engaged in the election than much of England with a larger percentage turnout. I find those who aren't at all engaged more worrying and there are far more disengaged folk south of the border. Hardly surprising though when you consider how disenfranchised the North of England has become, they must feel like the have very little political voice.

Oh and desite the fact I did vote for them I do feel Labour have been very complacent in Scotland in recent years and would do well to address this in the future. I hope they have learned something.

OOAOML I'm sorry I made you think I really was referring to Scotland as the Borg I was a bit fed up and did a bit of a post and run as I had things to do.

Ev1lEdna: I'm northern English and the only politician I really noticed addressing that part of my identity was George Osborne and his "Northern Powerhouse". It's become a catchphrase in our house!

I vote Labour but they do get on my nerves.

Sorry Edna I totally missed the sarcasm (which is embarrassing as I am quite into sarcasm).

Agree that parties need to refocus - Labour and Lib Dems especially.