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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be dismayed people still think cuts are the route to recovery

120 replies

wigglylines · 07/05/2015 07:42

The cuts are harming our economy, not helping it.

The idea that austerity can get us on the road to recovery is a lie!

Even the IMF have criticised austerity.

Let's get this clear, austerity is idological. The tories want to cut public services, and are using the economic crises (caused by global forces NOT Gordon Brown!) as an excuse.

Cuts harm our economy and the people in it.

We need to invest in the people in our economy to get it going, not bring the country to its knees.

If you believe that Labour caused the crisis by being irresponsible and the Tory cuts are the way forward, can I ask where you get your information from?

Is it by any chance the Murdoch press?

Have you never considered that maybe you are being manipulated - you do know Murdoch has a massive vested interest in the Tories getting in again, right?

OP posts:
Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:23

No irretatinhg that's simply not true. People with lots of children were often earning the equivalent of a 40.50 K salary when there was no way on earth they could do that by goig out to work. That is exactly why the cap to 26K was introduced.

grovel · 07/05/2015 16:25

From Studebaker's blog:

My name is Benjamin Studebaker.

I am an aspirant political theorist of American origin. I will begin working on my PhD at the University of Cambridge in October 2015. I got my BA in Politics from the University of Warwick in Britain in 2013 and my MA from the University of Chicago in 2014. Eventually, I hope to be a professor, write books, and, if I’m lucky, maybe make the world a better place. The purpose of this blog is to provide an outlet for my writing on topics of political interest and to build an audience for the future.

BikketBikketBikket, I hardly think that a 24 year old with a degree in Politics can really be described as an "economics expert".

GratefulHead · 07/05/2015 16:25

I cannot for the life of me think WHY anyone on benefits would want 7/8/9+ kids. Benefits do not make it worth while as the overcrowding, poor housing etc more than make it a negative experience. I seriously doubt anyone thinks...ooh if I have another kid I will get x, y or z extra. Having worked with these families I can yell you they often don't think at all which is sad. Poverty is about more than money coming in.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:27

Aw, bless him. He is pol'ical isn't he? Grin

Ptolemy - yes. The hideous irony of those shouting about Tory tax cuts for , " their rich mates" when those mates were quite a bit richer under Labour Wink.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:28

Grateful - I tend to agree.

And yet there are many larger families living like this.

And the Philpott creature absolutely did think like this, much to the horror of us all Sad.

GratefulHead · 07/05/2015 16:29

Yes he did, I suspect the exception rather than the rule, dreadful man.

GratefulHead · 07/05/2015 16:32

One of the saddest things I can remember as a community midwife was visiting a 21 year old with her 4th baby. During the visit I suddenrly realised it was her 21st birthday. I said happy birthday to her and she responded with "I'm 21 and I've got 4 kids" and she was tearful. So so sad, if you'd spokwn to her at age 7 and asked what she wanted to be when she grew up I dou shed have said "I want to have lots of children very young". Seven year olds have ambition, I wonder when they lose it and become resigned to a life like this girl had.

addstudentdinners2 · 07/05/2015 16:33

Fanny I can't go into all the social reasons why that happens, I would be writing an essay.

Suffice it to say many of these people believe they don't have any other purpose.

We should be looking at the root causes of why people make these choices. Often because their parents did before them. Often because they don't know any different and have not been encouraged to aspire to anything more. If there are genuinely people out there who do actually have 8 children on purpose in order to live in a shit council flat and receive a pittance - and yes it is a pittance - then I pity these people and want to help them, I don't hate them for taking my tax money.

On the other hand you get many people out there who need the welfare state due to no fault of their own and I cannot imagine why anyone would want that not to exist for them on the basis of some largely imaginary 'piss takers' (though again I am very Hmm at that term, for reasons highlighted above).

It just seems right wing politics is all about punishing people without looking at reasons why they are in trouble and tackling those reasons. And that doesn't seem right to me.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 07/05/2015 16:34

'I think the idea of a cap is to discourage people without incomes from having large families. I doubt that it'll work. But, it sounds right wing.'

It is statements like this I really struggle with, do you honestly think it is wrong to discourage people who can't afford to have large families without state support from...erm...having more kids?

SaucyJack · 07/05/2015 16:36

Addstudentdinners2

Agree that it's highly unlikely for a family in any one set of circumstances to be better off on benefits, but it is very possible for one family on benefits to be better off than a neighbouring working family- particularly if the latter has a mortgage to pay.

irretating · 07/05/2015 16:36

no fanny. The average family wage is £26,000 but this is not the total income that a family will have to live on. Most working families have their incomes 'topped up' with child benefit, tax credits, council tax benefit and housing benefit.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:42

It's 26K before tax . Millions of people earn nowhere near that kind of salary by working full time and few top ups.

It was absolutely right to introduce a cap in my belief so we can focus the benefits to those who really need it - those who cannot work , those fallen on hard times and those needing support for while whilst they get back on their feet.

irretating · 07/05/2015 16:43

And yet there are many larger families living like this.

I think it's time to point out that women on out of work benefits are no more likely to have big families than women in a working household.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:45

The problem was/is though add that whilst people know that they will not be asked to support their own families, will be given a home and money the there is no disincentive to hav emor echildren. The welfare state may not be an incentive but it should be a disincentive.

People say living on benefits is a shitty life so why is it okay to have child after child on them?

Littlemonstersrule · 07/05/2015 16:46

I agree with the cuts as the welfare state is very out of hand. People shouldn't be able to choose to work just a few hours, not work at all or keep producing children they can't or won't support.

People are quick to blame the state or employers but never themselves for choosing a lifestyle they can't afford.

Does it go against the recovery, maybe a little but somebody had to be brave enough to do it. Highering the personal tax allowance and lowering benefits makes sense long term.

irretating · 07/05/2015 16:50

It's 26K before tax . Millions of people earn nowhere near that kind of salary by working full time and few top ups.

No, it's 26k after tax, and what's your point?

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 16:54

This is my point :

The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said about 27,000 families have been subject to the cap so far, with their total benefits reduced by about £100m.

And it is tax free. A £27 K a year salary works out at £400 a week take home. The cap is set at £500 a week.

addstudentdinners2 · 07/05/2015 16:55

Ok, I'm still not seeing anything here that contradicts my argument.

Do you honestly not think we shouldn't be dealing with the question of why there are allegedly people out there who genuinely feel there is nothing better out there than a crappy life on benefits?

Don't you realise that if there are people with these attitudes, these permeate into their children and in twenty years time all the right wingers will be calling them scoungers too.

We need to deal with the root cause and encourage people to aspire to more, not punish them. It won't work that way. It's like swatting a wasp but not dealing with the nest.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 17:00

I spent 20 years in social care, add. I've seen, heard and witnessed it all.

If any of us knew the answer - the problems would have been solved years ago.

I wish I did but I do know the answer is never to make a life on benefits more financially attractive than taking a job. I admire the tories for taking that stance. It worries me that the SNP/Greens would reverse that.

Maybe if benefits are tighter people may have fewer children in the future to be brought up in a cycle of deprivation and poverty?

addstudentdinners2 · 07/05/2015 17:05

I think we can agree to disagree on this one as I too work in a similar capacity and I have the opposite opinion.

I cannot, on the other hand, fathom how any Tory voter can justify the massive cuts that have been made to domestic violence services?

worksallhours · 07/05/2015 17:09

Squiddly "In my professional opinion, we cannot borrow any more without risk of a credit downgrade, breach of financial covenants and default."

The problem with the Labour party is that it categorically does not understand high finance: in particular, the creation and destruction of money. And high finance destroys Labour governments every single time. You would think they would learn, but they never do.

"Could a Tory voter please explain to me why these cuts have to hit the poorest in our society and not the richest?"

I am not actually a "Tory voter". I am, weirdly, on the radical left but I stayed still and everything moved around me to the point where the Conservative spending plans are, in my view, the most viable for the overall economic security of the ordinary Brit in the medium to long term.

The first thing to consider is that you are seeing this problem from the wrong end. The real crux of the matter is that it is very tricky to write tax policy that hits "the rich" in our globalised and trans-European climate. It is not as though our elite are bound by land holdings in Britain and we can offset spend through increasing death taxes on estates anymore. Money can now cross borders with abandon, and any attempt to arrest, for example, capital flight creates an enormous ripple effect that ends up ... as we saw in Cyprus ... with dead ATMs and ordinary people having their life savings scalped.

The modern rich have money, by default, and the modern rich can move -- pretty much anywhere they want. They can escape, as the Greek elite did when Syriza came to power.

They can also employ better accountants and lawyers and bankers than the state can, which is one of the reasons why the FSA crumbled in the face of the CDO shenanigans of the noughties. What choice does an excellent analyst make when faced with a £50K role at a government department or a £220K role at a investment bank in their derivatives division?

Anyway, I am getting off the point. The thing is when you are talking about "the rich" in Britain, you need to look at a range of issues. First ... who, what and where are they? A lot of the super rich in Britain are not actually British citizens and their residency status is in flux. Second ... where is their wealth? Again, many of their assets are in holdings that are international, or registered in other territories. A lot of said holdings have head offices in other EU states, with different tax policies -- all of which is legal under EU law.

It is not uncommon for very wealthy people to actually have no money or property or cars or even a TV. All those things will be owned by an entity which, when you trace it back, may very well be in Belize.

So if you say okay, lets try to get those a few notches down and look at the well-off ... ie. those that earn over £300K a year. When you actually examine where this income goes, you will tend to find it funnels through some sort of company structure or tax-efficient vehicle with various investment write-offs here and there. It is the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Lets be real here: David Beckham is simply not on PAYE.

The point here is that the rich are rich because they can pretty much reduce their tax bill to as little as possible, and globalisation has handed them the world on a plate. Trying to pretend that we can do much about this without a wholesale global effort on the part of every national state, which is never going to happen ever, is make-believe.

There are things we could do but they would have massive implications. We could withdraw from globalisation, or leave the EU, or adopt the US system of paying tax on incomes made in other territories ... but I suspect we would accidentally find a conflict appearing on our streets out of nowhere (yes, I am that cynical).

So this is why ordinary people face the brunt of the cuts and other more subtle methods of balancing the books.

Because, to be blunt, we cannot run away.

Fannyannieanne · 07/05/2015 17:11

What would your answer be though, add? It's so incredibly difficult!

I don't agree with all Tory policies- of course not - like most people I take a best fits approach. I don;' like DV cuts at all but I dislike them less than I dislike the thought of the Ed's looking after our finances.

irretating · 07/05/2015 17:13

And it is tax free. A £27 K a year salary works out at £400 a week take home. The cap is set at £500 a week.

Where does this 27K come from?

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 07/05/2015 17:14

Liking your work worksallhours

A bit more thoughtful reasoned analysis!

addstudentdinners2 · 07/05/2015 17:17

Thank you both for having a civilised discussion by the way, there is far too much hysterical name calling and lack of logical thought from both sides!!

I don't know what my answer would be to any of it. The whole thing just makes me extremely sad.