To think that people who are all 'Me Me Me' get more respect from others?

[Mickeymoodles]

Whilst people that are considerate towards others, and who treat others decently just get shat upon? Well I certainly feel like I get shat upon, anyway.

Meanwhile people that I know that do nothing but talk about themselves and never give anyone else a second thought get people falling over themselves to remember every detail of their lives and basically kiss their arses.

I consider that I'm a decent person; I ask how people are, I listen to what others have to say, I offer support and help to friends, I remember friends' birthdays. It just doesn't get appreciated and I feel as though I may as well be invisible.

By contrast, I am currently on a Facebook support group for people with children with a certain condition. One woman, whose child has exactly the same issue as everyone else's on the group, never replies to anyone else and just posts constant posts about her child, and her life, with photos and videos, and everyone is all over her! She never acknowledges anyone else or anyone else's replies to her yet she is treated as the group hero!

I also work with a woman who talks non stop about herself. If anyone else talks to her about anything that isn't about her you can see her visibly glaze over. She is selfish, and refuses to do things such as give to office collections or sign cards to others, or do anything to help anyone else out. And yet she is treated like a goddess, with people virtually wetting their pants with excitement when she walks into the office each morning.

AIBU to think that the more selfish someone is, the more everyone adores them??

Gralick that is exactly it, you've summed it up perfectly.

I think all the time about how things will upset/inconvenience people.

If I go into town with a friend I end up not trying things on or not going in shops I want to go into as I don't want to piss said friend off, even though they will then spend an hour in a shop trying various things on and getting me to act as servant getting them various other sizes.

We have booked a holiday for this summer but I'm holding off telling anyone about it because one friend can't afford a holiday this year but wants one and I'm afraid of pissing her off.

And I know it's my own fault and that I shouldn't be so considerate but it's my default setting right now...

Ok well now that you've explained that OP, I still think you're focussing on the wrong person/people.

You need to focus on changing your behaviour if it's getting you down.

Learning to be more assertive (and I'm not for one second saying that will be easy), will be far more productive than getting pissed off at how much more attention other people receive.

You could bump into this woman when she's 85 years old and she might still be getting the same attention, or even more.

But her behaviour isn't what's causing you problems, it's your own behaviour, which is overly considerate...heading into 'doormat' territory.

I hope that makes sense

That isn't being considerate though it's just not valuing yourself as much as other people. Why go in to town with a friend if you don't think she's a good enough friend to wait and help whilst you try on clothes? Why does you going on holiday have to mean the friend who can't afford it will be grumpy and resentful? You don't have much faith in your friends

Yep, that's a massive point, rebecca. We have to take a leap of faith that most people aren't as exclusively self-interested as the people who trained us! Most of you aren't, of course. Just the arseholes

Actually, Mickey, if your broke friend is resentful, then she's the one with a problem.

Why not zap them, then? I don't know anyone like that, but if I did, I'd be buying them a framed photo of themselves for Christmas.

I work with someone like this. Every conversation revolves around her as she pushes her way into every conversation. She gets no respect. But noone argues with her/calls her out/tells her to STFU because its not worth it. Its easier just to extract ourselves from the conversation and leave her standing there on her own. She doesn't get the message. People like this don't see how boring they are.

Completely agree with the OP. Half the threads on MN seem to into a stealth boast. If I had a pound for the amont of times someone mentions they have a Range Rover or want some advice on which boarding school to send their children to.

Anyone who wants to help someone else is considered a loser these days.

I agree with PP who said it's not an 'either/or' situation.

I consider myself considerate to others, but I also consider my own needs.
My mother is martyr to everybody else, and don't we all know it! She's not narcissistic and a lovely person, but will kill herself for somebody else in need to her own detriment. And THEN be bitter about it not necessarily reciprocated.

Mickey, I think you have a choice here: become bitter and twisted at how unfair the world is, or stop concentrating on other people's bad behaviour and work on valuing yourself: your time, your wellbeing, your feelings. Surround yourself with people who make you feel better, not worse. Ruthlessly cull FP 'friends'. Some people are just 'drains' and they make very bad friends.

bythestairs, see, I don't see MN like that at all. Some people on here have expensive cars and use private school, some are unemployed and on tax credits, and many, many are somewhere in-between. It's one of the aspects of MN I really enjoy. Asking on advice re private schools is not stealth boasting IMO either - it's asking for advice.

I agree that as a society we could do with valuing those who look out for others more, but that is up to each and every one of us, isn't it?

Mickey, I'm like you! It was definitely my upbringing. We were taught to think about others needs all the time - to the expense of ours, to be honest.

I'm really trying to be more assertive and care a little less what others think. I've progressed to not worrying what the people I don't like think of me. It's a start..

I agree to an extent. I think Adele summed it up very well indeed.

I also think that feeling unappreciated can become a bit of a vicious circle because if you're expending energy on looking for it and noticing that you don't have it, that can come across to other people a bit.

I think that, if you've grown up in a family that didn't teach you to have a healthy amount of self-esteem, it can be harder work to find the difference between being nice and somehow being a bit of a pushover.

Part of that comes down to valuing yourself as pp mentioned and it also comes down to boundaries. Some people think they are responsible for other people's feelings - which is a sad lie they learn in childhood. The problem with this is that a) you think you are being considerate and feel terribly hurt when it's not appreciated while b) you aren't really demonstrating healthy emotional boundaries and it's hard for other people to respond to that in a healthy way.

People who don't do that - who aren't emotionally invested in everyone else's feelings and don't take things personally - can perhaps seem refreshing. That sounds a bit brutal I realise. But overcoming this isn't about counting up how much appreciation or attention you got and being happy with the score. It's about not needing to count it up any more.

And while some egotistical people get too much attention and some nice people get too little, it's not always the case. My DH is a case in point I think - he is quiet, thoughtful, kind, goes out of his way to help people and gets plenty of attention / isn't overlooked or walked over.

He is also very much at peace with himself and i do think that's connected.

OP, another thing about worrying that much about how other people feel is that it can actually make other people feel as if they are walking on eggshells. If you are constantly worrying about how others feel, and not wanting to upset them, it can end up seeming like you aren't so much afraid of hurting or annoying people but are afraid of having to deal with anyone else's feelings.

Are you afraid of upsetting the friend who can't afford a holiday, or afraid that you will feel responsible for their feelings?

I have found that people often brown-nose the Queen Bees because although the latter can be deeply selfish, they are also often entertaining and charming and powerful group leaders. Just like in the school playground, the group dynamics are often fear-based. Woe betide you if you fall out with the charming school bully, because as a consequence, you fall out with the whole group and you are on your own.

Some of us discover that the quiet, supportive types really come into their own when the shit hits the fan in life, as it has in mine. One or two of those people who seem to lurk in the shadows, suddenly shine forth. Listeners, not performers, are what I needed.

Keep being a good friend but I agree, don't be a resentful doormat. I was brought up to consider everybody's needs before my own. Because my own needs were not met, I think it made me too focussed on bleating about myself and conversely quite resentful of giving.

What Pacific and Worra said, which is what I always say on these kinds of threads. Women are generally socialised into 'niceness', and a lot of female bonding involves self-deprecation and effusive complimenting of other women, and also, women, again because of their socialisation, are also in general far more afraid of saying no to people, or asserting their needs over others, not because women are more selfless and altruistic, but because they're afraid of attracting dislike or 'Who does she think SHE is, anyway?' Women who don't play by female bonding social 'rules' stand out because of their comparative rarity - male-male bonding, on the other hand, doesn't involve so many conventions about reciprocity and 'taking turns'.

There is a reason why women are so over-represented at assertiveness training. And I agree entirely with whoever made the point that extreme considerate-ness is invisible by its very nature, because it covers up its own efforts, the way you don't invite people to dinner and then monologue about how much effort you put in to the cooking, so your guests don't realise you sweated blood over the homemade tortellini. And that's fine fir an occasional dinner party, but not so good if you spend all day every day being taken for granted.

As others have said, it's not an either/or situation, or a choice between being a pushover and a selfish bastard, there's plenty of middle ground.

Pacific, we appear to have the same mother,. As do quite a few women I know who learned very early not to follow their mothers' example of total doormattery and subsequent, often hidden or entirely unconscious resentment. It was an awful way to grow up, because it never occurred to my mother that it was also often her family's comfort/convenience she was sacrificing without consultation, not just her own, and that we bore the brunt of the anger.

She's genuinely baffled as to why she's friendless in old age, and makes bitter comments about people 'who think they're great', squeaky wheels getting oil etc, - and is continually taken aback by her three outspoken daughters lifelong friendships - without realising she has made herself invisible to other people her whole life.

Seeing her have a conversation with a stranger is always depressing but instructive. She tries to find out what they're like and then nods while they talk and reflects their opinions and assumptions back at them, whatever they are. If the other person said that shoplifters should be horsewhipped to death in the Main Street for a first offence, or Muslims should be put in prison camps, she would nod and say the person was right. She doesn't think this, but would never challenge. The other person then leaves without the faintest impression of my mother, because she hasn't actually said anything.

Ah now we're getting to the real problem.

See, as I've got older, I have learnt/preferred to put my own needs first.

Unless someone is a really close friend/family who I really care about, I just don't put myself out for anyone. And I just don't things I don't want to do, I don't care who it pisses off. I don't mind doing little favours obviously that are no skin off my nose, but to put myself out at great inconvenience?

Nah, I'm more important to me than you are.

Being a pushover doesn't necessarily make you a nice person - it just makes you someone too weak to stand up and say "this is what I want". I personally prefer assertiveness in my friends as I get tired of trying to second guess what someone means when they say they don't mind.

I had a friend who consistently refused to choose where to eat and then was unhappy about where we ate - it drove me mad and I just stopped meeting up with her because she never gave a straight answer of what she wanted to do. I'm a lot happier with friends who can straight up answer that they want pizza / indian / sushi because then we can come to an agreement without a guilt trip.

Similarly, I am happy to compromise and do friends favours but I won't constantly put myself last in my list of priorities, particularly not for someone who would never reciprocate. If that makes me a me-me-me bitch then so be it - I am happy with my relationships with my friends who value me as much as I value them.

I'm hijacking this thread to say - me me ME ME!!!
Do you give me massive respect now?
No?
But it's MEEEEE!

Euphemia. Did you want to say something?

I think it can be very context dependent. I know there have been times and places in my life where I have adopted the role of being the funny screw up and looking back, jibber jabbering and making it all about me... And yet in other places or at other times I can be completely bending over backwards supportive, will really go out of my way for other people.

Actually the me me me condition is usually when I am feeling anxious or down, and if the you you you condition is very pronounced it is much the same. I have come to the conclusion it is all about healthy balance. When you're in a good place you can see from your own persepctive and the other person's, but if you can only see or act from one point of view you need to veer it back the other way.

As my lovely assertiveness trainer pointed out, this means nobody even realises how much you're considering them. It also prevents you asking for your needs to be met, because you've already thought of how it will inconvenience others.

Fascinating, Gralick I haven't heard it put this way before - I think that I do this.

My Mum used to say that people were either drains or radiators - seemed simplistic to the young me, but now I know exactly what she meant...