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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to not understand how prosecuting someone in this position helps?

27 replies

Elliebellyboo · 22/04/2015 10:56

I met up with a friend last night. She's been having issues with her son refusing to go to school for years and she confided that she is being taken to court and is absolutely terrified that she's going to prison.

The issues started when he started secondary school and over the years she has tried pretty much everything she can think of to get him in school. She has always engaged with and worked really hard with the school and EWO and has done everything they've ever asked her to and more as well. I don't want to give too much detail, but they've changed schools, been through CAMHS, lots of local agencies offering support, she drives him in (when she can get him to leave the house) and hands him over to a member of staff, but her son just walks straight back out again. She really has tried.

She's on her own, and her son is now a big strapping 15 year old (much bigger and stronger than her), who can be quite aggressive and just refuses point blank to go to school.

I've worked with young people with issues around school refusal in the past and I know "just force them" really isn't an option here.

How do you force someone who is physically bigger and stronger than you to do something? You can't.

She's absolutely terrified she's going to end up in prison

OP posts:

WorraLiberty · 22/04/2015 10:59

Are you sure she's as compliant with the school as she's telling you?

I've known (and worked with) lots of school refusal children and not once have the parents been taken to court, if they work with the school on trying to find a solution.

Original poster

Elliebellyboo · 22/04/2015 11:09

Yes, I'm sure she's done everything she says she has. I've known her a long time and know what she's been through with him over the years.

I'm also a foster carer and have had several school refusing teens over the years so have had my own dealings with these organisations so I know how difficult it is.

OP posts:

WorraLiberty · 22/04/2015 11:11

In that case, she won't go to prison.

In fact I can't even see her being fined as she'll be able to prove she worked hard in supporting her son and the school, in trying to solve the problem.

I can understand her worry though.

ApignamedJasper · 22/04/2015 11:12

Yanbu, I've had 2 experiences of this sort of thing, with ds1 & 2 but at primary level.

Ds1 got given a place at a school we couldn't physically get to.

Ds2 has a disability and was refused a school place, he is currently being assessed for a special school.

In both cases we were questioned about them not attending school when we really had done everything we could possibly do to get them going. Fortunately never got as far as court but I have no idea how prosecuting us would have made the situation any better. How are you supposed to take your child to school if you are in prison any way? Seems very counter productive to me.

Original poster

Elliebellyboo · 22/04/2015 11:32

I think the whole idea of actually going to court is absolutely terrifying for her. For someone who has never had so much as a speeding fine, it's all unknown and panic has set in.

She's not eligible for legal aid and can't afford legal help. She's had half an hour free advice but will pretty much be on her own from here on. She wants to plead guilty to get the whole thing over with as the thought of a trial is frightening her and it just seems to be completely over the top and counter productive to prosecute her in the first place.

She can prove she's complied with everything she's been asked to do and the other help she's sought so I think she'd be mad to plead guilty.

I just don't see that prosecuting her is going to help. If she does go to prison, what will happen to her son? She's had no family local so he'd have to change school again, would he go into foster care? How would that help a troubled teenage boy? How is any of this helping to get him back into school?

The last time I had to deal with an EWO, they kept saying "just make them go". How can I make them go? You just can't

OP posts:

Stormtreader · 22/04/2015 12:09

Can she get some kind of letter from the school maybe mentioning all the things they have tried as a list, and confirming that she has been cooperating fully with them? It would give her some backup, and also something to read out if she thinks she will panic when they ask "what have you done to try and get your son to attend school?"

The court don't WANT to send her to prison, they are already overcrowded, they wont be out to "get" her, they're just people - see if you can get her to see this as just the way to get actual legal confirmation that she is trying and that his non-attendance isn't down to her.

Heels99 · 22/04/2015 12:12

People are not prosecuted to help them they are prosecuted for breaking the law. Your frind has presumably mitigating circumstances to explain. Has boarding school been considered?

SqueezyCheeseWeasel · 22/04/2015 12:15

Was homeschooling considered?

Ratfinkandbobo · 22/04/2015 12:18

I really feel for your friend, I agree that prosecuting her won't serve any purpose and who will care for the boy if she goes to prison? If he goes into care that is going to cost a fortune. I hope it gets resolved for her.

Morelikeguidelines · 22/04/2015 12:20

She is incredibly uunlikely to go to prison from what you've said.

She could try to have a quick word with the legal advisor to the mags when she gets to court as she might have a defence if there is no way she could force him.

Welshmaenad · 22/04/2015 12:34

If she is frightened of the court process and can't afford a solicitor, has she looked into appointing a Mackenzie Friend to sit and help/advise her in court? Is that something you might consider doing for her OP?

Original poster

Elliebellyboo · 22/04/2015 12:55

Thanks all!

I'll look into a Mackenzie Friend. I think panic has set in and she's not really thinking straight right now so I'll see what I can find out.

I think, but I don't have any experience of magistrates courts either, that she gets to see a Duty Solicitor in court? Is that the case does anyone know? I've only ever been to Youth Court as an advocate for my young people, so I'm not sure of the procedures for adults.

Home educating was considered way back in year 7, but my friend didn't feel it was something she would be able to do plus she has to work (although has found it very hard to hold down a job with all this going on). They changed his school which helped for a while, but over the last year or so the refusing has escalated to the point he just point blank refuses to even get out of bed. Sometimes she can get him into school where she hands him straight over to a member of staff, but he either behaves in a way to get himself sent home or walks straight out.

OP posts:

Superexcited · 22/04/2015 13:00

No, she won't get a duty solicitor. You only get a duty solicitor if you are in a police cell following arrest.

Has your friend considered withdrawing her son from school and home educating him? There is no legal requirement for a child to attend school, they can be legally educated at home.

Superexcited · 22/04/2015 13:01

Sorry x posted about HE

justicewomen · 22/04/2015 13:28

She needs to go, ASAP to her local Law Centre or CAB and ask for an urgent referral to the Bar Pro Bono Unit www.barprobono.org.uk/ (they will not take self referral). They can provide volunteer lawyers to give advice and representation. She should try this before entering a plea as she may have a strong defence.

GatoradeMeBitch · 22/04/2015 13:37

At this stage would she be able to withdraw him from formal education and state an intention to home educate, or is it too late?

Original poster

Elliebellyboo · 22/04/2015 16:53

Thanks.

She's been to CAB and they referred her to a local legal advice centre we have here, but she was only allowed half an hour. I'll send her the Bar Pro Bono link. Thanks very much!

I think it's too late to withdraw him now to stop the court proceedings, and she can't really home ed anyway as she needs to work. She looked into back when he was in year 7. There were issues with home ed and not being able to claim benefits long term as far as I remember - I think she would have only been entitled to Job Seekers allowance and wouldn't have been able to claim it as technically she wouldn't be available for work - does that sound right? I know she went through it all quite extensively at the time and it just wasn't feasible for them but I can't remember the ins and outs of it. I know she didn't feel that she was really up to it either

OP posts:

ptumbi · 22/04/2015 17:35

Does the child know that she could go to prison on his account?

Does he care?

Does he know that she is terrified of it all?

i think that is supposed to be the motivation behind it - that your mum could be sent away because of you.....

Beloved72 · 22/04/2015 17:47

I recommend she writes to her MP. If she has worked extensively with the school and attendance officer to resolve these issues over the years she absolutely shouldn't be prosecuted.

It shouldn't have got that far.

MP - write, ask for an appointment.

tyto · 22/04/2015 17:51

The problem can be that the school just don't understand the child's needs and suggest harmful strategies.

I've worked with attendance officers who seem hard wired to view all attendance difficulties as being the fault of the parents.
Sometimes the school are actually the cause of the problem.

Fuckup · 22/04/2015 18:10

Yanbu, its an utterly ridiculous policy.

I don't think the rational behind it is to scare kids into going to school so their parents don't get punished though (as someone said up thread,) some kids wouldn't give a shit so it would be even more stupid.

I hope your friend gets some (more) support and isn't punished unfairly over this.

ScOffasDyke · 22/04/2015 18:12

She has no defence. The only defences are statutory and relate to illness or distance from school, for religious reasons, or if a parent has to travel to trade (still with a minimum attendance for that one).
A barrister won't help, she just needs to explain to the magistrates. She's probably been summoned for the non imprisonable offence (s444(1) education act 1996) rather than the imprisonable offence (s444(1A)) as it's a 1st offence.

If she tells the bench everything set out above, she may be lucky and get a conditional discharge

TedAndLola · 22/04/2015 18:31

YANBU but our justice system, unfortunately, isn't about helping people or tackling the cause of crime. It's just about punishment.

comedancing · 22/04/2015 20:23

Can her son not get a home tutor .. .. That's available in Ireland once you have tried everything and the student has mental health issue.l wondered too was it to put pressure on him that his mom would go to prison if he didn't go. Also l think it's possible to have an online tutor and these students often are happiest working on a computer as the whole anxiety thing is diminished ..

tyto · 22/04/2015 21:41

'She has no defence. The only defences are statutory and relate to illness'

The child is with CAMHS so presumably would have some difficulties related to illness.

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