to think that too many women need permission to leave abusive relationships?

[ginmakesitallok]

This is a thread about a lot of threads.

My heart always sinks when I see a thread with "is this abuse?", "is this normal?' Etc in the title. Where the op is obviously not happy in a relationship but somehow feels that unless their partner is being"abusive" or not normal then they should just put up with it?

Surely it doesn't matter whether partner is being "abusive" or not, surely the fact that they are not enjoying their relationship any more is sufficient reason to ltb? In fact even if p isn't being a bastard none needs "permission" to leave?

I understand that sometimes people need their point of view validated and need support to leave, but there seems to be an unwritten rule that in order to leave a relationship it needs to be abusive?

It's worse when I read ops talking about how they are spending time gathering evidence, noting events etc, before they leave. You don't need proof! Just go!

In a simple world then 'yes' LTB bastard immediately. Unfortunately life isn't that simple. I was in an EA relationship, 400 miles from 'home', family couldn't care less as long as I didn't bring 'shame'. SAHM to 3, youngest asd, no job, no savings. If MN had been around for me then I would have realised and left sooner. It's scary not knowing what to do or where to go and you do need to plan. I was threatened with being kicked out, he'd keep the DCs and get a nanny etc. The whole point of EA and controlling relationships is that you start to believe that you are worthless and have nothing and are nothing. They don't start out like that. I would pray that just once he'd hit me so I had something to show people, the police, his colleagues. Never happened beyond pushing and jabbing.

On a rare visit home my oldest friend hid money in an envelope in my bag when she realised what was going on. I carried that in every bag for a year, looking at it gave me strength until I was strong enough to leave with my DCs.

It's easy to say LTB and go onto a thread about penis beakers or bridezillas. It isn't as cut and dried for the op.

Part of abuse is destroying confidence and self-reliance. So yes, women in those relationships probably need to hear someone else say it, or get 'permission'.

It's worth remembering that only 30 years ago being pregnant and single was still a source of huge shame for a woman. 50 years ago women were forced to give up babies that they'd had out of wedlock. Women were warned about being "left on the shelf" and older women were called spinsters. The whole point of women in films and stories was for them to find their man, to get their 'prince charming.' Everything to do with women centred around them getting and keeping a man. Things aren't so blatant now but there is still a large hangover from all that - romantic comedies are still all about women striving to get a man.

The message that many women get from this is that if they are single, especially single with children, then they are a failure. And in many cases, sadly, their own parents reinforce that point - they tell their own daughter that she must stay with a man who is abusive because it's the "done thing." It is extremely hard to fight against all of that pressure, especially when you're also being abused so that your self esteem is on the floor and you are possibly in fear for your safety.

Personally I'm seriously impressed that any woman in an abusive relationship manages to get away, given everything that's against her.

All very fair points, I guess that unless you've been in the position it's easy to make glib comments.

YABVVVU.

I was in an abusive relationship and I was too busy surviving it and being tortured and ground down to find the space or strength to leave. Plus my mum told me you can't change people and if you love someone you don't leave, so I thought I couldn't.

I think it's fucking FANTASTIC that women who aren't confident enough to leave have enough insight to get themselves on MN and ask people to talk sense into them. I think it's BRILLIANT that the women who need 'permission' try to get it.

I agree that you don't need permission, or a reason, to leave any relationship. But women in abusive relationships can't see that and are often scared to leave because of their partner's threats to harm them or himself or their genuine belief that it is their fault. Which is why YABVU.

worse when I read ops talking about how they are spending time gathering evidence, noting events etc, before they leave. You don't need proof! Just go!

Please stop trying to dispense advice about something you know nothing about. The above is necessary for many reasons, some legal (qualification for legal aid, evidence for custody cases etc) and also because leaving puts you in more danger so you may need police protection or a space in a refuge.

Agree with Peppermint.

I had nowhere to go with 3 DCs. Didn't think WA would help due to it 'only' being emotional/verbal abuse. I had no money. Married to a successful company director - who'd believe me? Asking for £5 and having to justify it to buy Tampax. Told flat out that his legal team would crucify me. I had no childcare, no family, no help.

I took from the OP that she was talking more about relationships that might not be abusive but are downright unhappy.
It doesn't have to be abusive for you to be allowed to leave.
It's really hard though op. My exH was such a joy sucker. It wasn't necessarily aimed at me and not intentionally abusive to me but I think the results were similar in terms of how I felt.
When you have DC it's a huge thing to uproot their life and break up a long marriage. Everyone (ok most people!) has their whinges and niggles about their partner so you put up with an awful lot thinking you must just be being fussy or high maintenance.
It took me years to realise that he was making me miserable. I had to get past the thought that it was just hard with young kids, that I might be depressed, that he might be depressed, that I was expecting too much. I had to get to the point where I knew it wasn't normal. All the little things that everyone puts up with, yes fine, but there was nothing left that I loved or even liked.
You then have to come to terms with losing the life that you had planned. Because he used to be a nice guy and I adored him and it was supposed to be forever. And I just kept waiting to find that again... cause I couldn't have been that wrong could I?! When I married the man who I was going to grow old with?
I hope that is what you were getting at and I hope that answers some of the why. And if not it was cathartic!!
Sorry if the typing is awful. I don't usually MN in my phone!

Perhaps the OP meant to put: why do people think you need a reason to leave a relationship.

In which case they should have written that.

Yes of course all these women should up and leave what is so hard about that

Where to go often with no money, fear of having no shelter (often with children too) or that they will be found and get another beating or far worse is all irrelevant when they have that choice

Please educate yourself before making such statements no one needs to hear this patronising shit when they are desperately trying to understand how it has all got so out of hand and wanting so much to make a change

No shit sherlock

Read up on abuse and WHY it is so hard to even think about what to have for breakfast, let alone make a decision to leave.

You are talking rubbish OP.
Others have explained why far more eloquently than me.

This thread has really upset me. Many, many years ago, I finally managed to summon enough resources to leave an abusive marriage. Throughout that marriage, I had no friends, he'd cut me off from family, work, pretty much any connection with the outside world, and my self esteem was on the floor. He chose my clothes for me, told me when it was time to go to bed, what time to get up, and controlled every moment of every day to the point that I wasn't allowed a thought process of any kind - even if I'd had the resources to form a thought process myself. Please don't naively assume either that there are a plethora of refuge places for women to turn to in their time of need - there aren't. Also, ringing the police to report emotional abuse? Really don't make me laugh. Ringing to report physical beatings including strangulation, burst nose, blackened eyes? You really better hope he's remanded in custody, convicted in court, and given a lengthy custodial sentence. I wouldn't bet on it.

So please don't start threads like this. Is it boredom? Curiosity? It's just, I find it insulting, patronising, and upsetting that you think I should've "just left".

To be fair to the OP I think she phrased her point badly, but the fundamental question is relevant - what in society is causing so many women to put up with such shit? Ideally we would live in a world where as soon as a woman sees a man trying to control her, as soon as he calls her a name or pushes her she thinks "I don't have to stand for this," and considers leaving. Instead, women are taught that relationships are "hard work" that they are the ones that have to "make it work" that they can't be too picky, that haha aren't men annoying, aren't men lazy. We have stories like Twilight and 50 shades that make nasty controlling abusive behaviour seem sexy and attractive. We still have the notion that a man who pursues a woman relentlessly and wants him all to himself is passionate.

For this to change in the long run we need women to be brought up to be ok with being on their own and to only accept a man into her life if he genuinely makes it better.

I think the OP has a point. I was in an abusive relationship, I knew that I was making excuses not to end it, I constantly worried about what people would think and if I had a good enough reason. Now I wouldn't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks, I can do what I like and won't justify myself to anyone.
Giving women the message that they don't need a reason, that they don't need to explain themselves to anyone, can only be a good thing. "My Interpretation" by Mika became my anthem for quite some time .

But it is about society's expectations still, that women put themselves last in a relationship. That you've got to work at it, and that it's deemed frivolous to leave a marriage or relationship if it just isn't working for you.

Men who are in a non-abusive relationship, who are not happy, can leave and no-one says anything about it. Women in the same position are called selfish, and told they obviously didn't work at it enough as if it's all their fault. So I can see why many women feel as if they need "permission".

Sorry if I phrased the op badly. As I said, perhaps too briefly, I understand the need for support to leave a relationship. Nibledbyducks, that's the point I was trying to make. Women shouldn't need a reason to leave a relationship, the fact that you want to leave a relationship should be enough. You shouldn't have to justify leaving, you shouldn't have to prove fault.

Of course there will be situations where this might not be true.

And nowhere did I say that leaving would be easy, God I'm not naive enough to think that! But the decision to leave should not be based on other peoples opinion as to whether or not your partner was abusive.

Ii think the whole issue is having somewhere to go. I found WA very helpful but the police contacted them for me as I was in hospital. If you have a place to run to then that's great but if not you need money a and a lot of courage. I was married to EXH for 6 years and 5 of those were happy. Then we lost our DD to meningitis and he took stolace with Mr J. Daniels and became a whole different person. I understood why but he was violent and abusive and I really tried to get him some help but to no avail? I wanted my DH back not the ogre he'd become. So you see I was thinking he would come to terms with it all but he was getting drunk and forcing himself on me and using toys we had bought for pleasure in the wrong way, as in they were put into my bum etc. Oh can't do .this I sorry it

I think we also need to remember that lots of people look back on their relationships and can, with hindsight, see very the abuse very clearly but from within it is very hard to be that objective. It can help to hear that what feels normal but not nice now, used to feel the same to others and their retrospective view is dramatically different.

It's an extreme version of AIBU. Sometimes you can't see things clearly enough yourself and you need someone to share their experiences of thinking and feeling the same and how those feelings changed afterwards.

an abusive partner will wear someone down so they have little or no self esteem. They won't be able to make a decision because they don't think their opinion counts, they think it is their fault because of the abuse.

If it was that easy there wouldn't be abusive relationships as people would just leave.

It takes an average of 35 incidents of physical abuse before the victim will call the police. The emotional abuse starts way before the physical abuse.

Many women in abusive relationships will have family and friends (as well as HIS family and friends) saying "oh that's how men are" and "och, men, can't live with them...." and "my DP was like that" and "he's a great guy, he's just stressed right now".. and "it's not that bad" or "you're overreacting.."

When you are surrounded by people making excuses for his shitty behaviour, you start to feel "jesus, is he right? maybe the fact that screams at me regularly is because he's stressed, and yes, maybe it IS just the way men are, and I did ask him a couple times to do xxxx.... " And the doubt kicks in, and they worry that it's them...

I think the thing you have to bear in mind is someone in an abusive relationship has been conditioned that it is there fault, so given it is your fault leaving isn't going to make you happy.

People in abusive relationships are often isolated, financially controlled.

The evidence as pepermint said is very important for child protection and for self, legal aid.

I cannot speak about being abused by a partner, most of them have been lovely, the ones I didn't click with I found easy to wall away from.

I had abusive parents though, mentally and physically. I got away for a little while, but soon got dragged back in, in truth I never escaped. The abuse continued into adulthood, although the last physical attack happened when I was 18. I wanted to walk away so badly, but as soon I made plans to leave, my mother broke down, stop doing housework, looking after siblings, said she 'couldn't cope without me'. Through the abuse, she made me feel the only place I could ever be 'important', was at home. I nearly lost everything, my friends, my partner, I've already screwed up any chance of the career I wanted.

I had plenty of people telling me I was being used, that I needed my own life, but I felt sick every time I thought of leaving. You have no idea how 'conditioned' you've become until you walk out. Even then, it doesn't just go away. I still feel I 'owe' them something, that it's my fault everything has fallen to shit without me. You can walk away physically, but I sometimes wonder if I will have ever fully walked away mentally.

Sorry, I know this is more about spousal abuse, but I just wanted to give some sort of insight.

Gosh op.... All these 'should nots' and 'it's worse'

People seek advice/support/a second opinion and you dish out that simplistic crap in response to it

26point2miles - sorry you must have me mixed up with someone else? I haven't dished out any advice to anyone seeking support, simplistic crap or otherwise.