To think parents should take responsibility if children chase sheep on country walk?

[Firethorn]

Recently went for a country walk (public right of way across farmland) with SIL, my 2 nieces, and another couple and their 3 kids. Crossing a sheep-field, the 5 kids started chasing sheep, trying to 'round them up' in a flock like they'd seen sheepdogs do on TV. I asked SIL if we should stop them, she said no they always do this it's not doing any harm. Other couple agreed and said the kids are having fun, let them play with the sheep. I was a bit concerned as one child was carrying a stick and waving it around, but respected the parents' decision.
Shortly afterwards an irate farmer marched towards us shouting and swearing! She was really aggressive and had a snarling dog (off the lead), dog was circling us but not approaching. For about 5 minutes mins she yelled and swore at the kids for chasing her sheep. All 3 parents then turned on their kids and told them off, lying that they'd been telling them to stop but they'd disobeyed! (They hadn't told them to stop at any point). My niece burst into tears and hid behind me and I lost my temper with farmer for swearing at kids, told her to back off and stop shouting, and to get dog under control. The dad of one of other kids then threatened to kick the dog if it came near his kids, and after some more shouting we decided to go back way we'd come. She shouted abuse after us until we were out of sight!

I'm annoyed with other parents for letting their kids chase sheep then lying about trying to stop them! Also with farmer for being so intimidating and rude. SIL says we should just have apologised and carried on walking. AIBU?

I think I see Christy' problem.
The holidays have started and she's stuck in on her own on a Saturday night.

I think there might have been a bridge in the field too.

Can't believe the OP wrote a letter to the farmer.

Yes, the "letter" was where it finally all started to unwind.

A bridge too far, I fear.

Thanks for see it as it is pip.

I love sooty too

I'm merely pointing out how the farmer's behaviour made the situation a lot worse

Each time I read this thread, I think it couldn't get any worse. But OP, you keep digging yourself deeper! It's hilarious now.

And now we have someone offended because their nn is bolded. Bliss

I didn't post for sympathy, empathy yes. Just an understanding of what it's like. I completely understand many people don't know the 'ways' of the countryside. Why should they know when they don't live the life we do? The OP really upset me. Her post was a blatant disregard for farmers, their land and their livestock. To allow children to run amok among livestock (especially sheep) is stupid. Allowing children to 'round up sheep' because they "seen it on tv" is outrageous in my view. Perhaps I feel this way as we have a sheep farm and yes I can't remember the last time I slept more than 2 hours. I very much remember the days when my children were small and that feeling of 'just functioning' due to lack of sleep. It's awful. From a farmers point of view the sheep in the field the OP mentioned were the farmers sheep. The children SHOULD have been told not to chase them. BUT the OP was there and watched the children chase the sheep. She then got angry with the farmer who dared challenge the party. That frustrates me as I would have done the same. At the end of the day those sheep are our
livloehood. Yes, some go for slaughter, but that's life. I am sick of her attempting to defend her and her family/friends actions. I am sick of her trying put the blame on the farmer. I am sat here feeding lambs without mothers and yes, I'm shattered. DH needs to sleep and I will sleep when he gets up. This post probably seems disjointed but I am so tired I don't care. How dare the OP claim they "didn't know" about the county "ways". I am very much frustrated by her as I have given my advice (as have others) many times only for it to be ignored. It's most frustrating when people don't realise what we do. But that's ok according to the OP let your nieces/friends children ch se the sheep...and your SIL treat others land as her own.

I am, unashamedly, a townie. But...I can't remember every not knowing that lambs were born in spring. After all, you only needed to drive up the M6 through Cumbria for it to be patently obvious to even a young child. Quite apart from the "lambs, and chicks, and bunnies" element of Easter. So I'm afraid that I would honestly find it hard to believe that any even modertaley well educated person raised in this country honestly had no idea that spring was lambing season. Especially as spring if the most common birthing season for so many animals. I can't remember when I learned that chasing sheep could cause them to abort...but I wasn't an adult. It was just...common knowledge.

But, even if you didn't know that...as a townie who only very occasionally hit the country (under protest - I preferred a good book) by the age of 5 I knew that: you stay on the path, you close the gate behind you, you don't leave anything behind, you don't nick anything, and you don't chase the animals. I knew that because my parents, who were also townies, had the sense to teach me.

These children have been failed. But not by the farmer. They were failed by the adults in their life who couldn't be arsed to teach them the basics of countryside behaviour (couldn't be arsed to learn them themselves....which is a lot like driving without learning any of the highway code first, then wondering why driving on the wrong side of the road causes a crash). And who then instead if taking the blame themselves for their own failings, dumped the blame onto the children.

I feel sorry for the farmer, and the sheep, and I even feel sorry for the kids, but I do not feel in any way sorry for the stupid irresponsible adults. Any more than I would feel sorry for a drunk driver who said "but there should have been a sign inside the car saying "don't drink drive".

Excellent post, nocoolnames.

I apologise in advance if I offend anyone with my use of bolding of your name

The only thing missing from this tale of country life is three goats.

I grew up in Australia with no sheep near me but even I know about the Country Code. Years reading Enid Blyton and having pretentious Julian and the wildman Tammylan taught me everything I know today.

OP - I understand your SIL is upset because her children were upset.

I understand your SIL and her family have no idea about lambing season and that if stressed they miscarry (as I didn't till MN either).

However, as upset as your SIL is, is only a portion of how upset the farmer is/was. The farmer perhaps reacted poorly, perhaps, but she was upset because her flock was in danger. Her livelihood was in danger. To you and your SIL they are "just" sheep but to her they are much more.

Telling the farmer (in your letter) that she needs to rethink how she approaches people will not do any good. It will only have the same reaction your sister is having, except the farmer is vilified as it was YOUR family that is in the wrong here and created the situation. Sending an apology is a great idea, sans the "you should change your attitude" paragraph.

It doesn't matter that the sheep were lambing, your SIL and her children abused animals. Sure, they didn't realise what they were doing was abuse, but it was. It could have (and may have, you don't know yet) resulted in death. Both of the lambs and the Ewes.

The walk way doesn't mean that anything on that through way is yours or the public's property. It doesn't mean anything on that property is up for grabs. It doesn't matter that the kids "thought they were playing a game", it matters that that game involved someone elses property. Sheep are cute and all but they're still private property. Just because I have a shiny car doesn't mean your SILs kids can take it for a joy ride for "a game".

I must ask though. Why is it that the absence of the sign means they can do whatever they want with someone elses property? Why must they put up a sign telling people not to do something that most sensible people don't need a sign for? Why is a sign needed to tell people what should be common sense - "it's not mine, so I need to stay away"?

As an aside, perhaps you could suggest to the town council that they release some sort of education brochure or program for the area... you may find though that many people will think it's pretty bloody obvious so focus on "townies" that don't know. Perhaps your SIL could do the same with her children's school, especially as they "townies" are the ones that need to learn.

Honestly I do understand why you and your SIL etc are upset, but they are being totally unreasonable to not understand that what happened is purely of their own doing. THEY put their children in a position to be frightened. Their actions (or inaction rather) are to blame here. Their lack of common sense is to blame. Not the farmer, who was understandably upset for an unprovoked attack on her property and livelihood. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Have you put in the letter names and addresses so that farmer can present you with a bill for lost lambs and ewes if they are any?
Have you also admitted that the parents lied and let their children chase the sheep regularly? That the children were not in fact out of control not listening to parents?
I doubt she'll see it as a loss that your sil and family no longer walk around her farm considering the way they behave.

"Both my kids were born and grew up in a city. We now live on the coast with lots of lovely countryside. Both knew instinctively that chasing or annoying animals was wrong and they've never done it."

I know, right? I don't get this mindset that it's fun to chase animals. If either of my two had done that, I would have stopped them whether the sheep were likely pregnant or not. I don't like it in cities when I see laughing children chasing pigeons either, with their parents looking dotingly on.

Aiiieeee. Two people have addressed me by putting my name in bold. I can only surmise that this makes me either: MN royalty (preen) or an MN pariah (looks for sharp implements with which to end my miserable existence).

christy, a name change is effective only if you also change your posting style.

Thankfuck and for you. Livestock farming is sheer bloody hard work. Because the clocks have gone forward, DH's milking felt like it started at 3.15 rather than 4.15 this morning.

'Have you put in the letter names and addresses so that farmer can present you with a bill for lost lambs and ewes'

No. Because they are not MY children, I didn't chase sheep or tell children they could! Why should I pay?! TBH I don't feel it should have been me writing the letter either, but SIL is not going to do it. Perhaps if the farmer had been more civil SIL would have written the letter, included her details and offered to pay for any damage. She is normally generous with money but is too angry and upset to even consider this. In her mind, the farmer is a rude, aggressive nutcase who has given her child a fear of countryside. And whatever my beliefs, I do NOT have the right to put SILS or her friends names and addresses in a letter without their consent!

Do you agree with your SIL about the farmer?

Why are you writing a letter at all. An apology at the time would have done the job surely. Given that the farmer is a sheep farmer I imagine that she is far to busy to be worrying about you.
In her position a letter from anyone in your party would piss me off even more.

Wow! What a thread. Puts me in mind of so many bad experiences with numpties in the countryside. First one, my own. We have horses which we have always kept on sheep farms or adjacent to sheep farms. Years ago, dS1 had a friend to play after school. I took both of them with me to the stables as I had a task to do there on the way home. Task was going to take about half an hour so I let the kids out of the car and suggested they play football on the arena.

About 15 min later i could hear a lot of over excited shouting. I Went out of the barn to see, to my horror (my heart was in my mouth) the boys chasing the sheep in the next field, going absolutely wild, frenzied. I'm afraid I went off the deep end, fearful for the sheep and fearful of the farmer's reaction should he see them. Angry at DS1 because of course he knew not to chase sheep or any other animal.

Needless to say, visiting child reported my behaviour to his father when he arrived to take him home and I got an earful about over-reacting, kids just playing, only a few sheep...

Same farm, went into the barn (gated, enclosed farmyard, just like someone's garden) one afternoon to find a family in the stables feeding bits of their picnic to the ponies and chasing the chickens. They took umbrage at being politely asked to leave, mockingly challenged my assertion that they were on private property and then started with the "stuck up toffs" schtick. They stone cold refused to leave until they eventually got bored some time later. No point calling the police, no chance of them coming out for something like that as they had made clear on other occasions.

As for the literally countless times I've had to ask people not to try to put the kids onto a new foal's back "just for a photo", while fending off a frantic mare, not to bring their kid's birthday party into the field for a picnic and rounders / paintball and not to make bonfires of their household rubbish- all this and I'm not even a farmer, just someone who uses countryside facilities...

The farmer in the OP will have reacted as she did because this won't have been the first time by a long chalk and she knows it won't be the last. The OP's insistent focus on the farmer's behaviour is nauseating tbh.

OP, have you taken in anything that has been said on here about how the farmer was likely to have been utterly exhausted?

For goodness sake. Stop harping on about the farmer not being civil. The adults in your party behaved appallingly. You ALL allowed children to terrorise animals. One was waving a stick ffs - does that not strike you as an aggressive gesture towards the sheep? Can you not see how the farmer had every right to be so angry that she was unable to moderate her language. Sheer stupidity is not a defense here.

Your apology is worthless if you go on to berate her for not 'educating' you. You are adults. Educate yourself. Really take responsibility and stop pushing blame.

I suggest you tell your sister in law what a stupid irresponsible inconsiderate cow she is and accept that the farmer did nothing wrong. If you read the posts about how exhausting lambing is and are still whining away your attitude is utterly despicable.

And in my opinion the whole thing about the sheep being pregnant and you not knowing is besides the point. You shouldn't chase animals regardless.

don't wee in the electric fence either

'I didn't post for sympathy, empathy yes. Just an understanding of what it's like'

ThankFuck, in your quest for empathy you have also been extremely rude, insulting, offensive and illogical. You are still jumping to wild conclusions and making untrue statements about what you think I believe. You say you 'understand' people may not know country ways but earlier you mocked and ridiculed them for this. You 'understand' yet still think non-farming ppl are 'thick as mince'? You have twisted my words and mocked me numerous times. Your behaviour on here has been so childish and nasty, I have little respect for your opinions. Yes I appreciate you are sleep-deprived from lambing. Yet you chose this way of life and chose a farm with public rights of way. But if you treat people on your land with such rudeness and aggression as you have shown here, don't be surprised if they have no empathy for you. You have given farmers a really bad name on here.

As another poster (a sheep-farmer) pointed out upthread, why try to alienate people on your land? What purpose does it serve?

Losing your rag at someone's ignorance achieves nothing. Screaming abuse just portrays you as an aggressive, uneducated fool and while it might deter people from your land, they are unlikely to empathise or offer to pay for damage.
Others might return and cause deliberate damage; SIL said her friend (dad of other kids) was so annoyed he later told her he might go back at night and leave every gate on her land open, find her sheepdog and 'teach it a lesson'. Stupid, pointless and spiteful I know. But entirely preventable if farmer had behaved with a bit more dignity and respect, and kept dog away from kids.

I don't think farmer was unreasonable to be angry. I'm not blaming her and I'm not defending SIL. I'm saying the situation had a negative outcome for everyone, including farmer, which could have been prevented had she been more in control of her temper.

OP you are clearly determined to blame the farmer for being angry that your party were trespassing and harassing her animals. The fact that you cannot understand why she was upset at the potential damage you were causing and maintain she should have used the opportunity as a rational and educational experience for your benefit speaks volumes about how entitled you are.

Your party were acting illegally, trespassing and causing criminal damage. The fact that you think the victim of your actions should take the time to calmly explain this to you makes you look like an entitled pillock.

Your SIL needs to realise that if she encourages her children to disrespect other people's land and property then there will be consequences - if she doesn't want her kids to be yelled at by property owners she could perhaps teach them some respect, and if she persists in sanctioning their illegal actions then she should have stepped up and taken responsibility rather than lying to the farmer to weasel her way out of responsibility by blaming her own children. What an immature and unpleasant person she sounds.

I think you've done entirely the wrong thing writing to the farmer - she doesn't need an 'education' from you. Would you stop to 'educate someone vandalising your property? Don't be ridiculous. Ignorance is no defence and you're making yourself come across as deeply unpleasant, sanctimonious and ignorant in this thread.