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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think Energy Performance Certificates are full of crap?

27 replies

AlanBstardMP · 22/03/2015 23:27

Selling our house at the moment and have just had the EPC - we're currently rated a 'D' when apparently the house (late victorian terrace) could be a 'B' rating.

The top recommendations are very expensive and probably not all that appropriate for the type of house so I'm a bit surprised by them. The top rec is internal wall installation for a cost of 4-14k. Projected savings would be just shy of 500 every 3 years. Err yeah, so hardly realistic then. The other recommendations are a suspended floor (up to 2k cost, savings of 130 every 3 years) and solar water heating (up to 6k cost with a saving of 100 over 3 years). So there's no realistic consideration of cost then?

Really do people even give much of a toss about this stuff? I get that if the boiler was really old or something you might be interested but something like that would come up in a survey anyway. How useful exactly are EPCs?

OP posts:

Bluecube1 · 22/03/2015 23:31

Yanbu. It's a licence to print money. If you buy a big old drafty house it will take more energy to heat. If you buy a new build with wraparound insulation it will take less energy to heat. Job done.

Original poster

AlanBstardMP · 22/03/2015 23:35

I should probably also point out that we're selling the house for 200k. So up to 14k for wall insulation (not installation as I typoed before) is a large chunk of money.

OP posts:

unlucky83 · 22/03/2015 23:59

YADNBU
Bought 1970s house with an EPC that recommended cavity wall insulation. Not sure whether getting it done would be a good idea - it is quite exposed But the council contacted me - they were offering to do it for free...so I asked for a survey. Within a minute of the survey guy being there he said it already been done - he could see the injection marks on the outside. To be 100% sure we had a poke in the hole that had just been drilled through the wall for the bathroom fan...yep it had been done....and not recently...

Then for a grant towards a 'green' measure I needed a new EPC because I couldn't get the grant unless I had had cavity wall insulation -which I did but it had to be on an EPC . IIRC it cost £100 for a new one.

I had replaced the rubbish 1cm wide gap 1970s draughty double glazed windows with modern good quality ones ...it still got the same number of stars under windows - because it had 'double glazing' before ....
Best was the new EPC recommended getting Solar PV fitted ...I had already had them fitted. The guy doing the survey said (for some obscure reason) the computer package wouldn't let him put down it already had them ... but it didn't matter - the house had a lower rating than it really did but it would show up as a recommendation with a predicted rating and you could use that to work out the actual rating of the house
tbh I felt like not paying but at the time it was good enough for what I wanted and by the time I wanted to sell I'd have to get a new one anyway ...but still

nocoolnamesleft · 23/03/2015 00:08

I think you mean "full of biomass".

unlucky83 · 23/03/2015 00:16

Nocool
Ohh I forgot another thing - recently rewired, being renovated so a stripped out shell ... half the light fittings didn't have bulbs...ones that did (bar one in the attic -not useable for storage) were low energy ones. He wanted to put down as an improvement I should have low energy fittings in all fixed outlets...how much lower energy can you get than no bulb at all .

Original poster

AlanBstardMP · 23/03/2015 00:17

Oh well done nocool

OP posts:

Original poster

AlanBstardMP · 23/03/2015 00:19

The lightbulbs one is interesting too - all ours are low energy except the ones in the basement and attic. EPC guy said all bulbs should be low energy, even in these areas.

OP posts:

unlucky83 · 23/03/2015 00:25

He didn't put that on your EPC did he????
In that case I would have just removed 'problem' bulbs and said there you go ....

engeika · 23/03/2015 01:14

The guys who do the surveys are forced to put only what the computer programme will allow. It is ridiculous - but if they guts try to circumvent the programme it gets rejected and they don't get paid. (And the actual guys are not paid well at all.

Notahopeinhell · 23/03/2015 08:56

Yup, total bolleaux. Our house is on the market, large late Victorian detached out of which I run a b&b, so our heating/power bills are way higher than average due to extra washing, drying, heating on for far more than average and scads more hot water for showers etc. Even so, our power bills are 35% less than the EPC report stated. We have triple glazing which wasn't taken into account, and the guy who did the report said same as engeika above, that they can only put in the figures that the computerised programme allows.

and don't get me started on the compulsory vendor surveys ( we're in Scotland) which are only valid for 3 months then you have to pay for another one...........

mamapants · 23/03/2015 09:03

Total rubbish. We had one done and the man said the front and back door both were counted the same as 'doors'. The back door was a brand new upvc double glazed door. The front was an old wooden one with a gap between it and the door frame.
He also had as a recommendation that it needed insulation above the kitchen. I told him it had been insulated by us at above minimum recommendation. He said he couldn't put that down as he couldn't see it. I hope the buyers didn't take down the newly plastered ceiling to put insulation in, think they'd have been a bit annoyed.

fredfredgeorgejnr · 23/03/2015 09:08

Just because the recommendations are not cost effective, it doesn't change the fact that the house is inefficient and would cost more to run than a better rated house. Of course that has no impact on someone already living there, but for someone moving in it's a very real consideration, and you need to price it lower it make up for the added running costs.

YABU. It sounds like it's doing its job.

holeinmyheart · 23/03/2015 09:38

It is a licence to print money. We had one done recently and had to pay before we received it. It was utter nonsense. and when my husband ( who is a super brain Scientist) phoned up the man who had done it and expressed himself forcibly, the chap on the end was like a bleeting whingeing lamb.

He said at first that he would come and do it again but later said that he wasn't coming because my husband shouted at him( he didn't because I was listening) the assessor was thick and devoid of any common sense.
We have friends who are architects who say the whole system is a pile of crap.
It is an utter disgrace that the Government are allowing this to go on as it is a scam.

TheWorldOfBullshit · 23/03/2015 10:02

They are a complete waste of time and money. I have now seen a number of them which contain factually inaccurate statements (such as stating that the property has 100mm loft insulation when in fact it didn't have any) which makes me wonder how thorough the surveys actually are.

And I'm yet to meet anyone who has used the EPC in the decision making process when determining whether or not to buy or rent any property.

unlucky83 · 23/03/2015 11:04

as mama said. I have insulated under the suspended floors where I currently live.
I intend to do so in the new house...the EPC surveyor said if I dd unless they could see it all it wouldn't go down as being done...
So that would involve lifting an area of floor and opening the access through the floor boards so they can inspect it from underneath. They wouldn't open it up, if I did open it up they would only be able to see part (wouldn't be prepared to get under the floor) so would be reluctant to put it down as it might be incomplete...
But the biggest load of bollocks -when I suggested taking photos of the whole area from underneath when completed ...nope that wouldn't be good enough - I might have installed it just for the photos and then removed it - believe me no matter what you use (rockwool or board) it is an absolutely shit job - filthy, dirty, uncomfortable...it would take more than a grade higher on an EPC to persuade you to go to all that effort just to rip it out afterwards (and then get rid of the insulation...a skip full at least...)
The only way it would go down is if I had had it installed by a reputable company and I had a receipt (could still have pulled it out afterwards ) ...except at the new house, at least, the crawl space is too low (less than 90cm high) for most companies to agree to do it...

ToriaPumpkin · 23/03/2015 13:41

We've just had our green deal refused due to refusing to put in cavity wall insulation or solar panels. We could have paid a chartered surveyor to come and (hopefully) agree with us that putting in cavity wall insulation would be detrimental to our house, but we have two small kids and are living with my parents until the heating is installed. The kicker? The assessor who came out to do the EPC and Green Deal paperwork agreed with us and said he understood we weren't ongoing to do it so would leave it out. It wasn't mentioned in any Green Deal paperwork but still came up on the EPC so nobody would touch it.

RocknRollNerd · 23/03/2015 15:24

Our guy made me run round the house counting lightbulbs and then had to borrow a torch and tape measure to check the level of loft insulation. I offered him my watch so he could tell me what time it was, he failed to smile! Out of all the money you spend moving house the EPC is the bit I resent the most. Our shiney new build has an EPC which recommends swapping some light bulbs but if you do that the heating cost is projected to rise by the same amount pretty much !

BaronessBomburst · 23/03/2015 15:41

It's an EU thing isn't it?
We live in the Netherlands and recently got a later stating that all houses had to have an energy certificate and here was ours. It was issued by the council and was based on information 'according to their records'. It was also free.
We got a B.
We have no double glazing upstairs, no insulation in the utility room, or the upstairs store cupboard above it. It's a big standard 80's house.
I looked out the window at our neighbours' new houses, with solar panels, triple glazing, and rain water collection systems and laughed.
Totally bonkers.

BaronessBomburst · 23/03/2015 15:43

A letter, and a bog standard house.
It's really not that big.
Bloody autocorrect.
:)

stargirl1701 · 23/03/2015 15:45

My flat was a C with the potential to be a B if we changed the lightbulbs.

I think it is valuable to a tenant, though.

ISeeNoReasonForBandage · 23/03/2015 15:47

I am happy to bet that this will be turned into a housing/Eco tax which is why it is a) required and b) registered. Rather along the lines of road tax. The more polluting*, the
More tax you pay.
*in their opinion

mrstiggy · 23/03/2015 16:11

God yes, we have just sold our house and I really resented paying out for this. I've also just bought a house and I can't say I paid any attention to any of the ratings whatsoever. Pointless waste of money.

RocknRollNerd · 23/03/2015 16:24

The thing that bugs me is that it's surely fairly obvious - buy a very old house with single glazed windows, big rooms, ancient boiler/heating etc it will be low, buy a new build with PV panels, AA rated everything and it will be high - the rest of the stuff falls in between and is about 'average' ie you could spend cash and make it better or you could save the cash and have higher bills. It did strike me as the worst kind of 'job creation scheme' in that it's got a whole load of people into low paid work and it's something you can't avoid having to buy but that no-one really wants and it does bugger all.

gutzgutz · 23/03/2015 16:39

It can be a negotiation point with estate agents. Ours offered it for free (usually £80) if we instructed them in January (dead time). Added extra. But agree, barely give them a second glance when viewing properties.

Original poster

AlanBstardMP · 23/03/2015 16:53

From looking at the EPC in more detail we have low star ratings for roof and walls - because its a victorian house so built to different standards. And in a conservation area so I cant just change whatever I wanted to even if had 14k spare.

OP posts:

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