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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think dead bodies should stay buried

104 replies

myusernameisusername · 21/03/2015 00:33

Ive just read yet another story about an inca baby been exhumed and studied for "science" to learn about the culture at the time and one a few weeks ago about bodies been exhumed in the UK to make way for a railway line Shock AIBU to think they should stay buried and it's unbelievably sick and disrespectful to do this to a sacred resting place of someone's mothe father child etc

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 21/03/2015 16:24

I worry about everyone alive and dead. I am a worrier.

Pagwatch · 21/03/2015 16:28

How people view remains is incredibly personal so it's difficult. I have found this thread really interesting.

I think the op implying that holding a different view does not have a 'normal' brain and lacks reverence is deeply stupid.

MrsUrquhart · 21/03/2015 16:37

I don't really have a problem with archaeological research, and it's inevitable that bodies will be exhumed during building work in built-up areas, e.g. Crossrail.

What I really don't agree with is people wanting to dig up people just to DNA-test them to see if they are who they are said to be. I heard that recently some people want to dig up the bones of the murdered Romanov family. Some historians wanted to exhume the bodies of the murdered York princes, currently in Westminster Abbey, to do a DNA test to see if it's them. The dean of Westminster said no, and rightly so imo. It's only morbid curiosity, they are buried in consecrated ground and it's just not necessary to disturb them. Plus, I like the mystery!

FyreFly · 21/03/2015 16:51

Doesn't bother me what happens to my remains in the far distant future tbh. Pretty sure I won't be around to complain!

Anyway, to clarify the law - as it stands right now, all human remains excavated must be reburied, normally within a two-year period from the date of being removed from the ground, unless they are significant enough to retain in stores or museums, in which case a licence to curate them may be applied for.

First of all though you have to get to the stage where you can remove them from the ground. If you find them unexpectedly on a non-archaeological excavation (i.e. construction), all work must cease and you call the police.

If you find them unexpectedly within an archaeological excavation (i.e. you'd targeted a house but found a grave), then you need to justify to the MoJ why removing them from the ground is necessary and will contribute to understanding, but mostly they will not let you remove them.

If you are targeting a known or suspected burial ground in an archaeological excavation, you usually need permission from the MoJ to remove anything. There are quite a number of hoops to jump through as you would imagine.

It's not quite as simple as archaeologists going in and plundering graves, then using the skulls as paperweights, or something ridiculous like that. If anyone is interested in reading more about the legislation, then these are some good links to try which outline the way things stand at the moment:

www.bajr.org/BAJRGuides/13.%20A%20Basic%20Overview%20of%20the%20Recovery%20of%20Human%20Remains%20from%20Sites%20Under%20Development/13HumanRemainsDevelopment.pdf

www.pia-journal.co.uk/article/view/pia.369/430

When I worked in museums, we had several boxes of human remains in the store. They were kept seperately in their own room - partly out of respect and partly because some visitors could be iffy about skeletons, and frankly I don't think the skeletons should have to put up with that kind of hysteria Wink - and were treated with the utmost respect. They were all Saxon or older in date, and from a site which had been built over.

I worked on the skeletons that went into the new Stonehenge displays and they were always treated very well. I remember they all had fantastic teeth! The information that the osteos had gained about migration and diet from the isotope analyses were amazing and really eye opening. I'm an Iron Age specialist so they were a bit older than I'm used to (i.e. Neolithic) but still equally fascinating nonetheless. There is an incredible amount of information to be gained from human remains. Quite apart from the simple fact that we have little (no) idea what sort of ceremony would accompany the reburial of prehistoric remains.

This is the chap I worked with :) : www.newscientist.com/article/dn24811-stonehenge-man-not-just-a-pretty-face.html#.VQ2ZMOFSSjE He really does have amazing teeth! Arguably better than mine Grin

Perhaps I'm de-sensitised to it as I've handled so many skeletons over the years, but I still have the highest respect for them. When I was a student I once went into a work room to do some cataloguing and an IA skeleton from Danebury had been laid out at the far end of the massive tables. I hadn't seen him so I dumped my tea and laptop on the other end of the table before putting the lights on. I apologised deeply to him when I realised Blush and then found a different table to work on. I used to name them as I thought a name was better than an accession number too...

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 21/03/2015 20:54

Re:Everest. I liken it to a sky burial.

Also if somebody was willing to risk their life to climb the mountain, it seems fitting that they 'become part of the mountain.'

Just because there is no stone or ritual or whatnot doesn't make somebody's death profane.

windchime · 21/03/2015 21:09

I have just one word - Amityville.

PopcornFrenzy · 21/03/2015 21:31

Sparklingbrook, you piqued my interest with your Everest thread so I googled it and was amazed at the bodies on the mountain, I also read the book 'Into thin air.' I was amazed to read about the death zone and the amount of people get summit fever and know if they go any further, chances are they'll die.

A lot of people want to be left on the mountain should they die on it.

Sparklingbrook · 21/03/2015 21:33

I started that thread about the litter then got totally freaked out with all the stuff about bodies Pop. Ended up reading loads of articles and worrying about it all. Sad

PopcornFrenzy · 21/03/2015 21:39

I read loads too, can't believe both the governments let people up there. It does seem like it's getting better with regards to the rubbish though.

Salmotrutta · 21/03/2015 21:45

I'm absolutely not trying to ride roughshod over anyone's beliefs.

I am just pointing out that after many hundreds of years the mummies of children (or anyone) are unlikely to be claimed as family members.

Archaeologists are very respectful of remains.

And presumably those of you who are squeamish about studying remains never visit the Egyptology sections of museums or Catholic Churches with reliquaries containing "The Jawbone of St Agnes/Catherine/Whoever takes your fancy"?
Or in fact any sections in museums which display anything recovered from ancient burials? And let's face it, many museum exhibits come from graves...

Like coins, jewellery, combs, etc. etc....

JeanneDeMontbaston · 21/03/2015 21:49

Oh, I've had human remains in my hands. It doesn't make me less squeamish.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 21/03/2015 21:50

Oh, and I got distracted - fyre, I meant to say, that was a fascinating post, thank you.

Sparklingbrook · 21/03/2015 21:57

I know that this is going to sound shallow and even more odd but I have to brace myself to go into a museum of most sorts. The boys like transport but even the cars/planes etc in museums seem dead and creepy as exhibits.
I don't remember a time I went to a museum that had human remains in it but I must have done I guess.

I do visit my local cathedral a lot but don't go to the crypt or anything. Blush

JeanneDeMontbaston · 21/03/2015 22:00

That sounds like the start of Foucault's Pendulum!

Mitzeee · 21/03/2015 22:30

Don't want to derail thread but FyreFly would you mind awfully if I PM'd you? Your work sounds exactly the sort of thing I am interested in but clueless about where to start!

Fascinating thread, it's amazing to see so many conflicting opinions and justifications!

FyreFly · 21/03/2015 22:32

By all means Mitzeee but I'm sad to say I'm no longer working in a curatorial capacity due to massive budget cuts. Still I will be happy to help :)

ArcheryAnnie · 21/03/2015 23:05

FyreFly thank you so much for that post, it was hugely informative.

I've seen the Stonehenge skeleton you mention, and I can remember feeling awed and privileged to be so close to him, across all these thousands of years.

Sidge · 21/03/2015 23:08

This is a really interesting thread.

RJnomore · 21/03/2015 23:12

I thought this was going to be about Richard 3.

I'm a bit disappointed.

Sparklingbrook · 22/03/2015 08:13

Is he being laid to rest today RJ?

PourquoiTuGachesTaVie · 22/03/2015 08:35

For me, wheb bones are discovered then I people wonder who this person was, what did they do, how did they die? They are in a way, remembered once more. I think the people who are never discovered or can't be discovered is sadder - all trace of them has been wiped off the face of the earth.

FyreFly · 22/03/2015 10:49

Archery you're very welcome :) it was a huge privilege for me to work with the Stonehenge project - I was very lucky. In fact my whole job was a huge privilege, and I miss it a great deal. Hopefully one day I will be able to get back into it!

Pourquoi it's amazing how often we can tell how someone died and what they ate, may have done. The osteos are incredibly intelligent people (I'm afraid I specialised in ceramics, so can't give you all the intricate details) and they can use things like the isotope readings from teeth and bones to tell age, migratory patterns and diet. They can look for signs of infection, disease or wounds on the bones. They can sometimes tell what someone's profession was, but that is rarer and usually confined to later remains where we have known professions. There was a fantastic example from the Mary Rose recently where they identified the archers in the crew from the condition of their skeletons (link here for more info: www.maryrose.org/discover-our-collection/her-crew/the-people-on-board/#The%20Archers-link )

I have come across several prehistoric cases where we know that they were incredibly strong and fit as we could see that the marks where the tendons and muscles had attached to the bone were incredibly well-developed; something you'd find today on someone like a bodybuilder. But all you could really say is that it's likely they were a warrior. It helps if they're buried with something!

RJnomore · 22/03/2015 10:59

Yes sparkles I'll be home for 5 and over in the history section for the live TV show.

Maliceaforethought · 22/03/2015 11:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SnakeyMcBadass · 22/03/2015 11:31

I'm going to be buried in a shroud at a woodland site without a marker. If any fucker digs me up, I'll haunt them. And not the demure floating through walls kind. The loud footsteps, rearranging the furniture at 2am kind. That shit will get real