about disability and MN?

[MarvellousMarbles]

This is a TAAT, sorry. Actually it's about many, many threads, but the one that triggered it was the current one about being annoyed at people faffing at the front of supermarket queues.

It's such a common occurrence on threads like this for people to point out that the situation the OP objects to can often be caused by disabilities. Cue lots of irritable posts from lots of posters that 'we weren't talking about people with disabilities' and 'of course I don't mean people with disabilities' etc. Sometimes they're meant kindly, sometimes they're quite unpleasant (with talk of 'the professionally offended' and the like.

Sometimes it makes me want to scream that the world is NOT a place filled with "normal non-disabled people" and a few "disabled people" on the fringes. There are millions of people with disabilities in this world, all trying to go about their daily business. In fact, everybody in this world has a range of physical and mental capabilities - we are all on a continuum.

So, when people with disabilities post on a thread, please don't cut us off with a breezy 'oh we don't mean you'. Our experiences are just as valid as anyone else's, we are part of the general public milling around that you meet every day (though you may have no idea about our disabilities). We are not 'extreme cases' or 'unlikely scenarios'. MN should be a place for everyone, not just those above a certain cut-off point on the capability continuum.

AIBU?

I have three with asc. As with other parents on here, I know when mine are being a pain and when it's their ASC. Bad behaviour often is just that.
My son is now 20. He knows how to behave appropriately around people of the opposite sex. He's an adult with ASC.

I agree to some extent Pagwatch but I do get tired of people saying that their child behaves well because they have taught them to and not accepting that some children/ adults don't have that level of understanding or self control. This is more about behaviour though than about being a dick.

My son was in hospital last week he was really badly constipated he had a two night admission before the enemas worked on the first evening we had to go for an abdo scan he was crying and shouting and acting up probably because he was tired and on pain, when we were finally called in some man said thank fuck for that ,some people are just twats.

Firstly I think we could all do with being a bit more tolerant of anyone who doesn't act exactly as we please or do as we wish. We are all different and I for one am a shamefully slow shopper.

However, I think that the issue is when any post about what a poster terms 'annoying' behaviour is jumped on by people as being insensitive to those with SN/Disability, as if their experience in this area allows them to intervene when the thread is not about that in the first place.

I am sensitive to this and found myself commenting on a thread about men staring at women in public - my brother is quite severe SN and would do this but not in a sexual way iyswim, my heart breaks that he might be viewed as annoying / weird but ultimately that's life and I can't take every post about a weird grown man as being about him.

I think when you have a lot of experience of SN you can become over sensitised and a bit of a soap boxer and sometimes that just boils over.

However, I think that the issue is when any post about what a poster terms 'annoying' behaviour is jumped on by people as being insensitive to those with SN/Disability, as if their experience in this area allows them to intervene when the thread is not about that in the first place.

But a thread doesn't have to be "about" disability to make a comment involving disability valid. Disabled experience is not a separate category, it is part of the general mix of life. I think usually people you perceive as "jumping on" the thread, are simply offering their experience, which is as relevant to the discussion as that of people who don't have disabilities. It doesn't mean every example of "annoying" behaviour is being explained away or labelled insensitive. It is all part of setting it into the wider context of the whole range of human experience. Which is something MN is/should be all about, IMO.

Marvellous I cant say I agree. When I think back to the man staring thread I commented on it struck me that it didn't really matter whether the man had SN or not, the woman felt uncomfortable.
Whereas greater tolerance generally is required, I think its ok for people to feel pissed off when the actions of someone (SN or not) irritate them and I don't think that they should be made to feel they cant comment in case the post is jumped on

Quite often its not posters 'educating' others its making them feel ashamed of a feeling that its probably ok for them to have.

Marvellous Yes, I agree. I have actually been told, in so many words, my experience with my DC, in an educational context, is irrelevant, because my DC has had some SENs. I keep having to say a significant proportion of DC will have some SENs or SNs during their school careers and these experiences should not be dismissed as irrelevant.

merry so,yes, we have to be tolerant of people feeing intolerant.... I think that is true. People do not always have the experience, emotional resilience or knowledge to react any differently.

I think its ok for people to feel pissed off when the actions of someone (SN or not) irritate them and I don't think that they should be made to feel they cant comment in case the post is jumped on.

I think you're misinterpreting my point, merry, which may be my fault. Let me try again. I am not saying that you can't post about feeling irritated about something. Nor am I saying that disability or SN is some sort of cover-all excuse for any type of behaviour, so nothing can ever be criticised. Nor am I suggesting that people with experience of disability or SN can "trump" anyone else's experience.

What I am saying (or trying to) is that the experience of people with disabilities should NOT be excluded because "oh, we're not talking about disability here". Just like the experience of women/black people/gay people etc. etc. should NOT be excluded from any general discussion because "oh, we're not talking about women/black people/gay people here".

Is that a point you find acceptable?

Merrygoround

But the man staring causing the woman to feel uncomfortable was not disputed by the vast majority of posters - so I'm not sure that that is relevant.

The dispute was around whether is was ok for the woman to aggressively tell him to fuck off. People were suggesting that, if he had SN, telling him clearly to stop staring would have the virtue of recognising he may not understand the consequences of his actions whereas telling him to fuck off wouldn't.

maybe the key is to ask yourself 'AIBU' before posting a rant about petty shit that enrages you - maybe even in the line when you are getting cross check yourself - and if you ask 'AIBU' be prepared to be told YES!

I think it's fine to rant about petty shit. But not to tell people whose disabilities give them a particular slant on the situation that their experience has no value to the discussion. It's all part of the general widening of perspective that MN is uniquely placed to give.

I agree with you OP. There was a recent thread about wiping children's bottoms past a certain age. A couple of posters shared their experiences of still helping their older children and were criticised because the thread wasn't about SN and so what was the point of their comments? Pretty crap that some posters are being excluded from talking about their parenting experiences, on a parenting forum. I was going to share my own issues with DS on that thread but in the end I couldn't be bothered. Didn't feel welcome.

I think Pag is spot on with drawing a line down the middle of

"Twattish behaviour = SN" which you see a lot on the relationship board

And

"But they might have SN" being properly recognised and acknowledged.

It's difficult isn't it.

I have DC with SN but they are older so I am much more thick skinned about that however having a newish disability myself, I have noticed I see everything very much through the "prism" of that atm (as you do with a newborn almost") and I am much more sensitive.

The supermarket thread, for example, I didn't comment on as it genuinely made my cry (and I am pretty tough normally).I have problems with my fingers and wrists and recently have been excusing my slow fumbling at check outs with "oh my hands are cold" but I'm aware as the weather gets better I can't say this. I've been worrying about it (stupidly) and that thread just finished me off.

I think, too, we still the attitude that those of us with experience, "educate" others and it pisses me off sometimes.

God, my typing.

Sorry, my hands are cold

I guess Pagwatch in retrospect I think it was ok to tell him to fuck off, I wouldn't want my brother told to fuck off but who can tell if he has SN or not and this was a grown man staring at a woman making her feel uncomfortable.

Marvellous I think our interpretations are completely different.

YesIDid - interesting post. Why do you think you feel the need to say 'sorry my hands are cold' rather than 'sorry, I have problems with my wrists?'

I ask, because I also sometimes do this. ('sorry, I haven't got my glasses' rather than 'sorry I'm nearly blind'). I think I do it because I find people can react very peculiarly to the mention of my disability, whereas a "normal" explanation is accepted with a smile and acceptance. That's odd, really, isn't it!

YesIdid I am sorry you felt like that and that you have developed a condition.

At the end of the day waiting at a checkout is no big inconvenience to anyone, they are not being hurt, uncomfortable etc. They are just a bit intolerant or impatient. Where my actions are causing no harm or upset I frankly wouldn't give a shit what they thought.

I am a chronically slow shopper/payer, no doubt I drive people nuts, but I just think its no big deal, they will get those precious moment back by almost knocking over an old person or child on the way out of the supermarket. Some people are just tits and its best to laugh (if you can although I appreciate its raw right now)

I think part of it is balancing the need for acknowledging people's differences with recognising common ground.

People with SNs should NOT [edited by MNHQ!] be treated as some strange alien creatures people have no hope of relating to (would actual aliens want this?). However their different strengths and weaknesses are useful to acknowledge, as these strengths and weaknesses make some ways relating, some forms of treatment, some ways of communicating, more preferable than others.

We all have strengths and weaknesses. We all have something to offer other people and all rely on other people's support for some things. This is the common ground. The detail of what these strengths and weaknesses are forms the differences.

Should not. Glaringly awful typo!!!!!! SORRY^^

Oh why did I not proof read better!....

Ha ha Capsicum! Wise words though.

Oh, I've asked MN to remove the post. I couldn't stand to see that one in print. I hope they do. Cringe.

Capsium, don't worry, it's obvious it was a typo, MN may edit it for you so it can stand as it's a good point.

Marvellous/Merry, I have no idea why I make an excuse, typing that post actually made me wonder myself why I do it! I think it's because I feel it puts the person responding in an awkward position...what would they say in reply? I don't mind a "take your time/don't worry" but I know from my DC, I hate any comments such as "oh I'm sorry/what a shame". I don't want to be pitied, I suppose. I guess I also feel embarrassed enough with the faffing, without drawing more attention.

I'm on the autistic spectrum hence my nickname.

I'm good at passing for 'normal' most of the time. It's really irritating though when someone has a go at me on MN for not spotting something which would be obvious to the neurotypical majority. I think MN may be worse than RL in that respect.

YANBU OP