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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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That someone is using a made up law to stop me taking a photo of my child

999 replies

Spero · 13/03/2015 15:25

My daughter is in her first ever drama festival. She is very proud and nervous. I want to take a photo of her. I am told I cannot due to the 'Child protection Act'. I am a family lawyer. I have never heard of this Act. Nor has Google.

So the objection is not that I may disrupt proceedings with annoying camera but that the mere act of taking an photo of my own child is somehow a child protection issue.

I am angry - not so much that I can't take a photo of my precious first born, but for what this reveals about the sloppy muddleheaded approach we seem to have about what 'child protection' really means.

AIBU to be so cross? Am contemplating stern letter of complaint. Making up legislation really isn't on.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Spero · 22/03/2015 13:09

Just chillaxing with James on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

So double pah to limited.

That someone is using a made up  law to stop me taking a photo of my child
OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 22/03/2015 13:30

You do realise you've seriously diminished the resale value of the Spike action figure by getting him out of his box?

Not to mention the unmentionable horror of interacting with an innocent toy and making him pose next to a life size mug with his little mug?

So I won't mention it.

But I think we both know the danger of your slime-covered fantasies.

I'm watching you.

Spero · 22/03/2015 13:34

He has fully articulated limbs. I shall be testing the very limits of indecent photography, so expect another thread from me shortly.

AIBU unreasonable to have been arrested in my local park, etc, etc....

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 22/03/2015 13:35

Does he have gripping hands?

Spero · 22/03/2015 13:48

Saucy!

Quite gripping, but sadly teeny tiny.

OP posts:
WereJamming · 22/03/2015 15:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NanaNina · 22/03/2015 19:21

I'm loathe to stop the humour cus I enjoy it so much, but I must take issue with you Spero about your post today 07:48 (approx.) This thread has had many twists and turns and one of them has been the problems with photographing children, showing adopted children (albeit inadvertently) and then putting them on FB where there is the potential for them to be recognised by birthparents, and find out which school they are at by the uniform and as you point out Spero this is a problem, especially when adopted children are teenagers and want to use social media. WereJamming has explained the issue very clearly.

But this is the 2nd time on the thread Spero that you have sought to discredit social workers. I know that you're frustrated about social work assessments and having read the law reform link that you provided where the Judge returned the child to the birth father, I can well understand this, although I was astonished at some of the comments made in the Judgement. I'll PM you about that as I don't think many people will want to debate that issue. It was my intention to do this anyway but since you've chosen to make these adverse comments on this thread, I honestly feel that I have to attempt to defend the social work profession in some small way.

As you know I have been retired from LA social work for 11 years and finished working as an independent social worker in 2009, so I am rusty, but I know that the situation in Children's Services is at an all time low, (as with all public services) and I place the majority of the blame at the feet of this coalition. They have ruthlessly slashed the budgets of all public services (by demanding huge savings, year on year) and then have the temerity to expect, indeed demand improved services. There is a national shortage of experienced social workers and massive problems with recruitment and retention, and this has been the case certainly since 2009. Many LAs have to rely on Agency staff, hence there is no continuity in practice, sickness rates are high as are vacancy rates. But the workload increases and most social workers are carrying excessive caseloads, hence newly qualified social workers (as in the case I referred to above) are taking on complex work in care proceedings when they are simply too inexperienced for such a task, and in some cases, managers are either too overwhelmed with work or incompetent (or both) and are failing to properly coach and supervise newly qualified workers.

I note the Judge in the case I referred to above called SW1 "hapless" and indeed she was, as was the Team Manager and the Child's Guardian, but what of the lawyer for the LA (or the Lawyer to whom the work was out sourced) - are they not to carry some of the blame? As you always point out, social workers can't expect to be lawyers and vice versa, but surely lawyers acting on behalf of the LA in proceedings, should be competent enough to know whether the assessments actually do provide evidence of significant harm or likely significant harm I don't think the Judge made derogatory comments about the lawyer in the case.

You say in your post words to the effect that "social workers continually fail to provide evidence based reports, and this causes resentment and confusion to birth parents. Can I ask what you mean by continually - is that every case with which you are involved, 1 in 3, 1 in 6, - this would give a better idea of the scale of the problem.

Adoption has been mentioned several times and you have commented up thread that you "can't understand why LAs place children for adoption so close to birth parents" and in your post today you call for an "end to placing children for adoption in a bus ride from their birthparents." Again can you say how often in your experience this has occurred, as I can only recall one particular case that this occurred in the LA for whom I worked.

Given that I worked for the same LA for some 25 years I only have experience of how we worked in terms of adoption but I think most LAs will have similar policies and procedures. The County I worked in was very large and there were 7 geographical areas and so we would always place children for adoption out of the area where the bps lived - and this could be anything from 10 - 30 miles from the home of the bps. And yes this was the cheapest option, as no inter-agency adoption fees were incurred. We also formed an Adoption Consortium with neighbouring authorities (again ensuring that children were placed outside of their home area) for obvious reasons. This was the 2nd cheapest option as we agreed on reduced inter-agency fees. SO where is the evidence that LAs do in fact consistently place children in their home area? I'm not being snippy by the way, I really want to know if this is happening, and if so what are the reasons.

Children who couldn't be placed (as described above) would be featured in the BAAF publication "Be My Parent" and "Adoption UK" and I honestly don't know if this is still the practice. You asked Spero why there wasn't a national database of adopters to enable more effective matching. There is - it's called The National Adoption Register and the policy is that any child awaiting adoption for longer than 3 months should be referred to the NAR. You mentioned that a year can go by and still no adoptive home is found, and this is quite true and I'll try to explain the reasons. Most adopters want to adopt a child as young as possible and there is a strong preference for girls. Whilst some babies and children under 5 are placed, the need for most LAs is for older children, sibling groups and children with disabilities. It's sad but true that once a child is 5, his/her chances of being found an adoptive family diminish by the day and this is especially true if they are boys. Most adopters will accept a sibling group of 2 and will take a "middle years" aged sib if there is an under 4 sib and they "come as a pair" so to speak. I'm in danger of generalising here, when that isn't really possible.

The whole issue of adoption matching is fraught with difficulties I'm afraid, because if an approved adopter expresses an interest in a child/ren on the NAR, that is far from a match.........the usual procedure is for the sw or homefinder for the child to have a series of telephone discussions with the adoption social worker of the couple/single person expressing their interest. Very often one or other side pulls out at this stage, so it's back to the drawing board. Let's take a situation where the phone discussions have gone well and both sides are still interested in the match - the next step is for the sw for the child (and the homefinder) to meet with the approved adopters and their adoption social worker. BUT if the child is in Birmingham and the interested adopters are in Carlisle (say) there is a problem......the social worker wonders where she is going to get the time to make this trip (she has a heavy caseload and maybe 3 or more cases in proceedings and children on the At Risk Register etc etc and families she is supporting) OK so the trip is made and if both sides are satisfied, the next stage is introductions - and here is a much bigger problem. If the adopter(s) are childless it may be possible for them to spend a week in Birmingham, visiting the child in the foster home on a daily basis and having discussions with the social workers etc. I don't have any stats on this, but obviously there are successful matches made in this way, but it is also the case that the adopters pull out and then it's back to the drawing board, and several weeks/months/even years can go by without any further interest being shown and the child/ren get older and maybe have to move foster homes several times and become more difficult and there is no chance of an adoptive family.

Blair displayed incredible naivety in his concern about children awaiting adoption and thought that there were people queuing up to adopt 9 year old boys living in foster homes and sometimes children's homes. Sorry not the case. Sad but true.

Phew I must stop.........so what's the answer - this coalition is hell bent on privatising all public services and is well on the way.....and I suspect the Labour party will have a similar agenda. Public service workers, be they doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers, firefighters, police officers, etc are not valued by this coalition - 70% of the Probation Service is already privatised.

Anyway back to social workers, Spero you call for "better education and training for social workers" - there is now a 3 year degree course, but what do we know of the calibre of the lecturers, especially the social work and law lecturers. I trained in the late 70s and our law lecturer used to say he was teaching law for "Noddy and Big Ears" - I hope things have changed but who knows? In any event we don't learn to be effective social workers in colleges, we learn on the job, we make mistakes and if we are fortunate (as I was) we are taken under the wing of competent, experienced workers with professional wisdom to pass on to newly qualified workers. I don't believe this happens any more - I really don't.

I'm sorry this post is so lengthy........and I've probably rambled a fair bit (hope I've refrained from ranting) and it's probably not something people will want to debate on this thread. I might start another thread, and maybe social workers will be able to give their experiences, but I'm not sure they will have much time for MN!

Finally I don't think the adversarial process is the right way to deal with care proceedings - I think Scotland have a different system?

Spero · 22/03/2015 20:29

Insofar as i understand the Scottish system - which is hardly at all - they have a tribunal made up of lay people who decide on removals? Which doesn't sound like an improvement...

Sorry nana, I hope you can be reassured that I have ridden in to defend social workers on many, many occasions, not least against He Who Must Not Be Named.

But I am also sorry to say that for the last two years, it has been a pretty 'continual' process that the evidence gathered and presented by social workers in court, has been pretty appalling. I certainly wouldn't say every case, but its enough to make me worry.

I haven't kept any detailed records but I would estimate that at least 3/4 of cases have something seriously wrong.

For e.g. the last 5 day final hearing I did collapsed by day 3 as the LA had to admit they had a 'lacuna' in their case. So many thousands of pounds of public money are wasted and parents and children have to wait for a decision for another few months while hearing is re-listed.

I can appreciate their frustration as in 90% cases it is pretty clear from the outset what the result should be. But as a lawyer I have to apply to law and far too often cases get to court where no one seems to have thought properly about what they need to prove.

I appreciate that I probably only get to see the cases that go wrong as I am now 20 years call so I am technically a 'senior junior' and won't be instructed on the more straightforward cases.

But it really should not be happening at all, at any level of case. The law isn't complicated - the SW needs to prove significant harm, or likelihood of it on the balance of probabilities.

OP posts:
trafficjam · 22/03/2015 22:20

nana nina just to answer one of your points above - my LA place children in the same area as birth families as standard. My adopted son and I live around 15 mins drive from birth mums home. For that reason -like were jamming - we are very anxious about ensuring pictures of our son don't surface on social media as birth family could feasibly come across them. We have had to change our sons name and think through our movements to ensure we manage our privacy and security.
However, I'm in full agreement with spero on the wider point that managing the behaviours around these things isn't helped by made up legislation being quoted at people. I've recently been told I can't access some paperwork pertaining to my son's adoption hearings due to "data protection". The independent solicitor didn't feel so constrained and shared the exact documents when we met up. If I'm not allowed to receive things from the LA as part of their policies then tell me that but don't hide behind "sorry, it's the law".

NanaNina · 22/03/2015 23:25

Yes I know Spero you've defended social workers on the Conspiracy threads many times in the past and I've certainly appreciated this, especially in relation to JH and his ilk. If three quarters of cases have something wrong, that is a serious concern. I was however trying to stress that I thought there were a variety of reasons that contribute to the poor quality of social work assessments, rather than just a "hapless" social worker, but since you haven't commented, I suspect that you are not in agreement, but I'd welcome your views on the matter.

You haven't answered my query about your call to "end placing children within a bus ride of their birth family" - I asked how many times (approximately) that this has happened in your experience.

Have my explanations and difficulties about the matching process in adoption been helpful?

And what pray is a lacuna - it sounds like a infectious disease or maybe a shrub - a variegated lacuna ?

TrafficJam I did say I could only speak for the LA that I worked for, but there were some 7 neighbouring LAs in our consortium and they never placed in the child's home area. I guess each LA has their own policy. I can quite understand your concerns you have about possible recognition of your son by the birth family. I am in total agreement (as I have been of Spero's OP) about the issue of "made up" legislation, or quoting legislation to validate a particular practice (e.g. taking photographs) only to find that the legislation quoted deals with something other than taking photographs of your child in a performance.
And this "Data Protection" business is used in so many cases for anything and everything. I can't pretend I know anything about this particular legislation, and suspect that many people who use it in the way you describe, don't know either.

I recently asked a Health Care Professional for Access to my Medical Records and she looked quite shocked. She began asking questions about why I wanted to see them, what did I hope to gain from seeing them, might I be upset - she flicked through the file and said "it's just letters and notes and things like that........" at one stage she was holding my file close to her chest!! She then said "no one has ever asked to see their records before" and maybe I should think it over. I politely told her I had thought it over and I did want to see my records and I wasn't required to give any reasons. She then said she "didn't know the process." Since I had looked on the NHS website before my consultation I explained it to her, but she still looked doubtful and said she would need to "check it out".........I have since submitted my request in line with the Hospital Trust's guidance on the matter.

In the Observer on Sunday and the Guardian on Saturday there are letters published by readers complaining about goods or services and the replies by the experts indicate that they have been able to contact the companies concerned, discuss the complaint and almost always get swift resolution of the problem. I don't understand how these companies are willing to discuss these cases with an employee of a national newspaper, and yet when I attempt to do likewise for an elderly relative, I am told that they can't discuss anything with me because of Data Protection. I have been trying to sort out welfare rights for her since her husband recently died, and I've got to the stage of pretending to the DWP that I'm her, as she is really anxious about money and they flatly refuse to discuss the case unless she is in the room with me and can give her permission. This is ridiculous as I could hand the phone to anyone...........but how do the journalists manage it - I've e mailed them several times to ask, but have not received a reply.

Spero · 22/03/2015 23:34

I have - I had hoped - always been clear that the problems with care proceedings stemmed from a variety of causes, including useless social workers, useless LA lawyers, lack of resources, lack of training, poor management, constant stress, social workers continually changing and going off sick etc, etc.

This was one of the reasons I got so frustrated with JH because he kept banging his single issue drum of 'corruption' and 'evil'. I don't think 'evil' has any role to play. I have never met an 'evil' social worker - but sadly I have met rude, dismissive and incompetent ones.

And equally I have met committed, intelligent and compassionate ones but if they are not supported by their management and if they have no access to any help or support for their clients, their commitment and intelligence is lost in the wind.

I have no idea what placement statistics for adopted children are like in terms of the geographical location of the children. I had extrapolated from what people are saying on this thread that it appears to be a country wide practice to place in local area because 'that is cheaper'.

I have said before and I say again - this is mad. thanks to JH and his merry band of tosspots, stirring up misery and rage in a group of very vulnerable people, the challenges to adoption orders are now rocketing up (or at least they are in Bristol) so I imagine the number of angry resentful parents is also increasing. Putting children within an easy bus or car ride away from these birth parents does not to me seem like sensible planning no matter how much money it saves the LA.

And why on earth should it be 'cheaper' anyway? If potential adoptive parents are assessed in their local area they can then go on a data base as ready and willing. SW from any geographical area can type in 'family for sibling group/family for one child aged 6 with special needs' etc, etc and get a match. Why should this cost more money? Post adoption support seems pretty woeful anyway.

But as may be apparent, this is not my field of expertise. My expertise is in care proceedings and not so much what happens afterwards.

OP posts:
RosesAreMyFavourite · 23/03/2015 12:34

I would have thought that one of the reasons to keep children within their area is so that they aren't separated from their siblings, extended family and friends, schools etc.

I guess that also where the extended family and friends are likely to put the child at risk then they would consider outside adoption.

Surely that's the basis on which they decide where the placement is going to be - what's best for the child?

And if a child will eventually seek out their birth parents and vice versa and have the right to do so, surely being in the local area means that the process of acceptance can be started immediately and even though there may be problems and issues it can be controlled and it ensures that the children understand from an early age why they don't live with their mummy and that the birth parents can learn to accept it and move on.

Sending them away prolongs the attachment imo.

So to tie it in with the OP and issues about photographs at school plays, if there was more openness about them finding each other perhaps there would be less fear and quicker acceptance by dealing with incidents in a controlled environment with fresh background information and services that understand the case history.

So an abusive father finding his child through a facebook contact and pursuing the relationship despite being given orders not to do so, would then bounce back to prison or prosecution. Alternatively he sits and obsesses about his lost child, unfairly removed, plays the victim for years until he finds them years later. Equally the child can live in fear as geographical distance really doesn't mean anything - seeing the perpetrator being controlled and seeing the protection services in action doing their job surely leads to better security.

I would hope they do all this on a case by case basis anyway with an understanding of all the above potential outcomes.

So regional statistics are fairly irrelevant as each region will have their own peculiarities in terms of case background. (i.e. foreign abduction in some areas, sexual abuse, mental health, violence/alcohol in others)

Spero · 23/03/2015 12:51

The majority of adopted children are aged between 1 and 4 years so those are unlikely to be relevant factors.

OP posts:
trafficjam · 23/03/2015 13:08

Personally I would rather not risk birth family finding me then dealing with it retrospectively. Once they know where my son is, how would I keep him safe day in day out knowing they or their friends could come back at any time?
And the disruption to my son would be devastating. As a previous poster said earlier - these aren't people who have shown good decision making skills or behaviours over many years previously. These are people with violent criminal behaviours, chaotic lives, abusive and neglectful. If my son decides in the future to find them, being nearby won't affect the approach we would ask him to take - ie through trained professionals with full insight to the reasons for his removal.
But, as you say, in terms of the OP - if we want our kids protected from social media exposure (and I do) , then I am relieved that establishments have policies restricting photography. What can't be allowed to happen is that establishments link this to irrelevant and incorrect laws. That won't protect my son either as its unenforceable and just going to piss people off if they know it to be false, as it did with spero. Also, it's fundamentally wrong and dangerous - laws are made and as a society we give our authority for them to be enforced through police / courts / prison. You can't just randomly make it up. That doesn't protect my son.
It's a bit like that lawyer who gets rich celebrities off speeding fines because the police filled in the fine incorrectly or didn't follow correct procedures. He could be accused of being pedantic by some but it's the difference between people being found guiltly or innocent and treated accordingly

MrsDeVere · 23/03/2015 14:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WereJamming · 23/03/2015 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NanaNina · 23/03/2015 16:06

Hmm .... we seem to be moving on to "What happens after a Placement Order is made in Court" (maybe another thread?) Spero yes I accept that you have been clear about the reasons behind problems with care proceedings and you are in a good position to see those problems, although as you say, you are usually only instructed in complex cases given the length of your experience (and I'm sure your competence) as a family law barrister.

I realise what happens after care proceedings is not your area of expertise. I am a bit surprised therefore that you call for an "end to placing children within a bus ride of their birth family" on the basis of evidence "extrapolated from this thread" - I did try to explain in my lengthy post yesterday that ime there is a policy not to place children in close proximity to the BPs for obvious reasons. At the risk of repeating myself, councils differ in size but will be made up of several regional areas and so it is often possible to place children in the same county but many miles from BPs. I also explained about the consortium arrangements with neighbouring authorities, again ensuring that children are placed in a different county from the BPs. And it is cheaper to place children "in-house" because no inter-agency fees are incurred, and in the consortium reduced inter-agency fees were agreed. OK money shouldn't matter but the reality is that it does - more so than ever now that LAs are struggling with severely depleted budgets thanks to Cameron/Osborne demanding massive savings, and expecting improved services.

I also explained about the National Adoption Register and how children should be referred if they have not been placed within 3 months of an Order being made. I've had a quick look at other ways of finding homes for children and BAAF Be My Parent is still going strong, both as a newspaper and a website. Children are referred to BMY and Adoption UK (as well as the NAR) when they have been waiting for longer than 3 months for a match. A quick look at the BAAF stats indicate that from April 2013 - March 2014 160 children were featured and the outcome was:

Children placed via website
Single child .......68
Sib group of 2....22
Sib group of 3.... 3

Total ................93

Children placed via Newspaper
Single child........21
Sib group of 2..... 9

Total .................30

So 123 placements made out of 160 referrals. Not bad, especially when you consider that these are children who are "hard to place" by virtue of their age, sib group, disability, parents with MH issues/LDs, complex health needs etc. They are children on a national basis who have not been matched.

Unfortunately the stats didn't give the ages of placements made, but there are detailed stats of referrals made and a quick look through, revealed that the vast majority were children over 5, or younger children fitting into the category described above.

Adoption UK don't appear to provide stats.

Re the NAR - Spero please don't tell me that you honestly believe that it's a simple matter of a sw typing in a referral and then a match is made. NO, you are far too sensible, intelligent, rational, experienced to believe that is the case! You make it sound like buying something from Amazon! I did try in my lengthy post to outline some of the difficulties with matching, so I don't propose to go through that again.

I can't find any stats for successful matches via the NAR. As you rightly say most adopted children are aged between 1 and 4, and there won't be any such children on the NAR in that category unless there are other factors involved. And of course it costs money if a match is made, because the child will have been referred from a LA, and if a match is made, then the LA providing the adopters will request an inter agency fee. I have no up to date figures on inter agency fees but whatever they are, they will be a drain on the depleted budgets.

Roses I can't agree with the content of your post. You are making many assumptions, seemingly without any knowledge of this complex issue.

MrsDeVere (Hello!) I agree of course with your post but the circumstances are different aren't they for Kinship care and SGOs. in terms of geographical location. Incidentally do you know if it's still the case that LAs are putting pressure on Kinship carers or long term foster carers to apply for an SGO. I remember this was happening before SGOs came into effect, but they were being pressured to apply for Residence Order. In my experience long term foster carers were as rare as hen's teeth! Have you any idea of the % of LAC children are in kinship care or subject to SGOs?

Spero · 23/03/2015 16:57

In vast majority of my cases children are adopted by strangers or placed with family under an SGO. So I have very little experience of adoption within the family but can see why that makes geographical proximity so important.

Nana, maybe I am just use fantastically naive. But I don't understand why we can't have a system that's flags up all thepossible parents who might be a match without geographical restrictions rather than doing a search of ever increasing circles which just seems very inefficient and time wasting. If the best match for a child is in Manchester but birth family comes from Cornwall, surely it is more important for the child to get the best match possible than restricting first search to Cornwall???

OP posts:
MrsDeVere · 23/03/2015 17:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NanaNina · 26/03/2015 01:14

OK Spero I'll have one more go at trying to explain adoption placement/matching for children with approved adopters.

  1. The LA Adoption team, recruit, train and assess prospective adopters and arrange for them to attend the Adoption Panel for approval (or otherwise) The other main task is "homefinding" for children in the LA who are awaiting an adoptive placement. There are obvious cost implications in terms of social work time.
  1. LAs are divided into several different areas or regions. In the LA where I worked, there were 7 areas in total, 3 in the North of the County and 4 in the South. The Adoption team was centralised, given that it was a countywide service. This enabled all the adoption workers to have knowledge of all children on the "Children who Wait" list and all approved adopters. The Principle Officer for Adoption provided oversight of this data and adoption workers updated the data on a weekly basis and sent to the P.O for Adoption.
  1. The first choice in terms of linking or matching was to consider making "in house" links or matches wherever possible. The advantage of this was a) Enabled a match to be made in the county but not in the area where the birthparents lived. The usual practice was to place children from the North of the County in the South and vice versa, so long as the match was suitable. b) Communication between the adoption workers was easy as they were in a central team c) When a match was made, introductions to the child in the foster home by the prospective adopters was not too difficult in terms of geography, as it meant the adopters travelling within the county, rather than possibly travelling from one end of the country to the other. Intros are stressful for prospective adopters and emotionally and physically exhausting. They need to visit the child on a daily basis and begin taking over some of the childcare e.g. feeding, bathing etc. prior to placement. d) It is the cheapest option because there is no inter* agency fee involved or a higher fee charged by one of the voluntary adoption agencies e.g. Barnardoes. AND funding does have to be taken into account, more so now than ever. The child placed for adoption "in-house" creates a vacancy in a foster home, possibly negating the need for the LA to buy a family from an Independent Fostering Agency (IFA) who charge very high fees. But that's another story!
  1. If a child has not been matched "in-house" within 3 months, he/she should be referred to BAAF (Be My Parent) and Adoption UK for inclusion in their newspapers and websites. They should also be referred to the National Adoption Register. Likewise approved adopters who have not been matched or are not actively persuing a link should be referred to the NAR. Approved adopters can self refer to the NAR. Exchange days are organised by NAR throughout the year in different parts of the country where any approved adopters awaiting a placement (on a nationwide basis) can meet with the social workers who have children awaiting placement, and see profiles/videos of the children and have discussions with the social workers. I think the matching rate for Exchange days is good.
  1. Needless to say the children referred as above will be older children (over 4 or 5) sibling groups of 3 or more, children with disabilities - possibly on the autistic spectrum, a diagnosis of Aspergers, global developmental delay, learning difficulties, complex health needs etc. That's by no means an exhaustive list.
  1. The NAR is a blunt instrument. It's a data base and gives very few details of the child, and the task of linking approved adopters to specific children is an admin task so what looks like a possible match could be a million miles away from reality. I'll try to explain:
  1. At the end of the adoption assessment, applicants are given a list of possible difficulties with children awaiting adoption - would you consider a child with e.g. a mild physical disability/moderate to severe phys dis/mild learning diff/moderate to severe ld/global development delay/speech and language delay/history of sexual abuse/one or both parents with severe MH issues (given the hereditary factor in terms of psychotic illness)/one or both parents with LDs/Foetal Alcohol Syndrome or possibility, given mother's significant abuse of alcohol in pregnancy/child born with drug dependency etc etc etc.
This is a tick box exercise - and the applicant(s) tick YES, NO or MAYBE (dependent on discussion with social workers) though obviously this paper exercise can change once real children are involved.
  1. Adopters are approved for a child or children within a certain age range and this is dependent on individual circumstances, how many spare bedrooms, age of any birth children etc. Adopted child/ren need to be the youngest in the family so they are not competing with younger children, and the usual policy is for there to be 2 years between youngest birth child and adopted child/ren. Many applicants want a single child, though some will consider sibs of 2, and occasionally sibs of 3.
  1. The info in 7 and 8 I hope shows that there is far more to matching than simply typing in ("Sib group of 2 - under 5") and YES there might well be such a sib group on the database (with very few details) but when the adoption social worker for the child talks with the adoption social worker for the prospective adopters, and the full details of the children are given, a very different picture can emerge - could be that the 1 year old has mild cerebral palsy and the 4 year old has speech and language delay, is being investigated with possible hearing problem..........OR one or both parents have a psychotic illness (increasing possibility of child/ren inheriting this MH issue later in life) The list of what lies behind these children on he data base is endless - but I hope you get the picture.
  1. I'm not saying that matches aren't made (and the NAR does provide comprehensive stats) so I'll come back to that, but matching is a complex business. Maybe the prospective adopters in the case scenario above are still interested after talking with their social worker about the sib group, even though there are more difficulties than they envisaged and so full written information is exchanged on the children and the prospective adopters. Often the adopters pull out and pursue another match, and the sib group wait until someone else expresses an interest and the whole process starts again, but sometimes matters progress. They talk with the foster carers involved and see a video of the children, and they maybe talk to their GP or HV about the specific difficulties (especially if they are health related) and decide to pursue the match, and travel to wherever to meet the children, and they are still keen, and the social worker for the children thinks they are suitable, and finally the adopters give a definite commitment that they want to go ahead......then the case goes to a Matching Panel to ensure that all of the issues related to the children and the prospective adopters have been covered. If there is agreement to the match, then intros begin and the child is eventually placed.

In the "free for all" database that you favour Spero it would be a logistical nightmare. It would mean that every social worker in the country would have to refer every child awaiting adoption to the database as soon as the PO was made, and all applicants as soon as they were approved. This would be a colossal amount of work for social workers and it would need a huge team of admin workers to manage the data base. There would be a frantic rush for babies and young children without any major difficulties in their background. The admin workers would be taking calls from social workers for their approved adopters and passing them on to the social workers in the child's LA. SO whereas now there might be around 5 expressions of interest for a child on the NAR, I can't imagine how many there would be if every child was on the database. Dozens, hundreds maybe and social workers in the child's LA would not be able to cope. And given the masses of interest in say a 3 month old baby girl, which prospective adopters get "first chance" - is it the ones whose social worker was first to contact the database, or what???

Phew..........I've gone on again - please say you see where I'm coming from Spero or I might be forced to take action - head/desk - head/desk!!

Incidentally I had an e mail from Olivia at MN today. She has referred to the post of mine that was deleted and misquoted the sentence that caused the problem. It was initially perceived as a "personal attack" but after communication with Becca it was downgraded to an "inflammatory" comment, but Olivia has upgraded it back to a personal attack. More action with the head and desk I think.

Have you had any response from MNHQ.

NanaNina · 27/03/2015 14:44

Now look Spero that post above took me a very long time- and you did ask a question and that was my response. I sincerely hope you will reply, as otherwise I will have no alternative to report you to MNHQ for your abject refusal to respond to my post, which I think will be perceived as rude and potentially inflammatory

I'm still awaiting news of whether MNHQ provided evidence of those rude and inflammatory posts you allegedly posted.......???

Janethegirl · 27/03/2015 23:42

A tad aggressive post Nana I think.

JessieMcJessie · 28/03/2015 00:07

Fairly sure Nana was joking Jane.

NanaNina · 28/03/2015 00:08

It's a joke Jane and one which Spero will understand Grin

NanaNina · 28/03/2015 00:10

Cross posted there Jessie - I think anyone who has followed this thread with its many twists and turns will recognise my post as a joke! Mind if Spero doesn't get a move on, the joke might be over!!

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