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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

That someone is using a made up law to stop me taking a photo of my child

999 replies

Spero · 13/03/2015 15:25

My daughter is in her first ever drama festival. She is very proud and nervous. I want to take a photo of her. I am told I cannot due to the 'Child protection Act'. I am a family lawyer. I have never heard of this Act. Nor has Google.

So the objection is not that I may disrupt proceedings with annoying camera but that the mere act of taking an photo of my own child is somehow a child protection issue.

I am angry - not so much that I can't take a photo of my precious first born, but for what this reveals about the sloppy muddleheaded approach we seem to have about what 'child protection' really means.

AIBU to be so cross? Am contemplating stern letter of complaint. Making up legislation really isn't on.

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DinoMight · 20/03/2015 13:11

I do think you are making rather a meal of this, and enjoying it.

Bit embarrassing really.

limitedperiodonly · 20/03/2015 13:12

RosesAreMyFavourite I believe you when you say you didn't report Spero.

Nonetheless, many other posters did - MN said her keyboard was alight - and I believe their primary reason was that the reporters didn't like their ill-logic and misunderstanding of spero's point being pointed out to them.

IMO those people who argued that spero and the rest of us should shut up because the means justifies the end are dangerous and I will confront them.

If you don't like people saying that, then argue back. There are examples of the means justifying the end that I would agree with. This isn't one of them.

But people shouldn't go running to mummy claiming they've been bullied off a thread when the truth is they've been bested by someone who knows a great deal about an issue and won't back down.

And I don't give a fig for eye-rollers when those eyes are in the heads of people whose opinions I don't respect.

Spero · 20/03/2015 13:16

Dino Might - no shit sherlock.

You may find it embarrassing. It should be obvious after 34 pages that I don't and you telling me it is is likely to have little impact.

Oops sorry forgot to RIPA that. consider this post RIPA-ed.

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DinoMight · 20/03/2015 13:19

RIPA is wearing a bit thin too. You imagine your 'humour' excuses you for the way you conduct yourself?

Ok then.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/03/2015 13:21

If a reasonably polite person mentions a factual error in what I post - not a typo - I would be grateful for the correction and learn from it.
I only get irritated if someone insists their unqualified opinion and quick Googe trumps peer-reviewed mainstream science.

In science, correcting an error isn't bullying, it is an essential part of the scientific method: if we let incorrect information stand, others who are not expert in a particular field may believe it, build on it and then the error is perpetuated.
This is partly how Junk Science and probably Junk Law grow.

We need correct facts, not blissful ignorance, in order to form evidence-based views or decide appropriate action.

My views on non-scientific topics develop as I read a variety of other opinions, especially from those who are expert in their field, as spero is.

Spero · 20/03/2015 13:23

No Dino au contraire. I don't need 'excuses' for my behaviour. My behaviour does not require to be 'excused'.

I have not done anything that requires me to dig around for an excuse.

I am glad you are finding RIPA quite annoying. That is precisely the point of it.

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DinoMight · 20/03/2015 13:27

Well, there - we do all have different standards don't we?

One person's embarrassing behaviour is another's enjoyment.

limitedperiodonly · 20/03/2015 13:29

BigChocFrenzy Very wise.

If the armed robber you mentioned had followed the real science about lemon juice rather than the junk he'd be free today. I think we should all reflect on that.

Mind you, if he'd have been wearing Gollum's ring he'd have definitely got away with it.

TheChandler · 20/03/2015 13:38

Dino Might I do think you are making rather a meal of this, and enjoying it.

I don't think you are really aware that this is a very standard technique that barristers use. A very good barrister will keep digging away and not accept placations.

Personally, I'm interested in the law not being misrepresented. I don't think you can really "make a meal out of that" - its a perfectly worthwhile aim and I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone that would discourage that.

Bit embarrassing really.

Not everyone is the shy, retiring type though. People are different. I really think someone in charge of a festival making up the name of a piece of legislation and lieing about it banning parents from photographing their own children is far more embarrassing.

I think pretending you have legal knowledge and then being caught out (which has happened on this thread) is really embarrassing.

But I don't see whats to be gained from posting a thread simply to point that out.

DinoMight · 20/03/2015 13:41

Not trying to gain anything, I expressed an opinion.

TheChandler · 20/03/2015 13:41

OK, shall I say what I've been thinking for a while now?

Why would anyone want to silence a lawyer who is speaking about the law on child protection?

Spero · 20/03/2015 13:50

ooo I don't know Chandler. That's a head scratcher. I wonder why John Hemming - just to pluck a name out of thin air - was so annoyed at what I was saying that he outed me in the Daily Mail AND reported me to the Bar Standards Board?

So you can see why spats on threads are a positive source of enjoyment to me compared to the crap I must deal with in my other life.

Dino precisely - you have your opinion. I have mine. I don't try to shut you up, I don't report you to MNHQ for expressing that opinion and I am sure you will show me the same courtesy. But equally, your opinion is not and cannot ever be some sacred thing that I am not allowed to disagree with, or to mock.

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CloserToFiftyThanTwenty · 20/03/2015 13:54

OliviaMN when you look at the tone of the email thingy, please can you also look at never using the phrase "going forward" again? Ta muchly Smile

Glad to hear you don't intend to ban Spero - one woman's "rude and inflammatory" is another's "engaging in robust debate", and I'd hope you would never want to censure robust debate

TheChandler · 20/03/2015 14:05

Ah, I see...

I did wonder what the motivation could be.

Spero · 20/03/2015 14:09

JH's handmaidens have a long reach. One of them actually altered his wikipedia page to include (rude and inflammatory) description of the 'mumsnet controversy'. It was up for months before anyone noticed. The same one follows me around Twitter every now and then being rude about me and mumsnet. Think she got banned and is bitter.

Really, don't people have anything better to do? I know I don't. Its either this thread or reading about best interests in the Court of Protection so you can understand why I am hanging out on this thread all day.

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RosesAreMyFavourite · 20/03/2015 14:15

My god you're slippery Spero, and defensive, you're repeatedly misinterpreting what others are saying to suit your own arguments, no wonder you were reported to the bar.

People don't report to MN because they don't like their opinions being doubted and MN generally wouldn't blindly back them up if they did.

Misinterpreting the law to suit your own ends is exactly what you are disagreeing with in your OP, the least you can do is stop with the conjecture and misinterpreting other peoples complaints.

Your beef with the school's statement is pure pedantry, you choose to dress it up as being a matter of principle. Sure point their mistake out to them but I think in this case that's all it is and they will probably go 'oh christ, who put that in there, must have been the secretary, I'll have a word'. And not 'Really? Is there no such thing as the Child Protection Act? I didn't know, please explain, I must report this to the education authority as clearly they haven't trained us properly, they really shouldn't be misinterpreting laws like this as if everyone did it where would be be, please don't report us as we've got enough lawyers snapping at our heels for cracks in the pavement and PE accidents as it is'.

Anyway that's what I think, is that OK?

TheChandler · 20/03/2015 14:17

Yes, I am familiar with the type.

tbh we really do need more posters like Spero who have proper jobs and qualifications in the relevant field posting on internet sites querying things.

Why in God's name this would be controversial to some I cannot imagine, but then I lead a very dull life.

Anyway, I am sure that with a General Election coming up and constituents to serve, any politicians with an interest in this field will be very busy.

I am pretty sure that 400 or 500 years ago we used to have actual self appointed witch-hunters - odd types, whose motivation was presumably the thrill they got out of it.

Spero · 20/03/2015 14:18

You are fully entitled to your opinion.

Just as I am fully entitled to tell you I think you are so very dangerously wrong.

Your beef with the school's statement is pure pedantry, you choose to dress it up as being a matter of principle

Relying on law you do not understand, law which does not on any analysis apply to the situation is not pedantry. It is a very serious matter which has the potential to have very serious consequences. You wouldn't accept a doctor being sloppy about the kind and amount of drug he administered to you, so why would you accept a law being waved about that wasn't understood or even relevant?

If you think its pendantry, that's fine. Up to you. But don't keep on twisting your knickers because I refuse to agree with you.

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Spero · 20/03/2015 14:21

My god you're slippery Spero, and defensive, you're repeatedly misinterpreting what others are saying to suit your own arguments, no wonder you were reported to the bar.

It's going to disappoint you when I tell you that the complaint against me was not upheld.

I am not reporting any more comments as I got very tired and bored of it all last night but if I get any more emails telling me to wind my inflammatory neck in, this is just the kind of comment I will dig up in my defence.

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RosesAreMyFavourite · 20/03/2015 14:34

Relying on law you do not understand, law which does not on any analysis apply to the situation is not pedantry. It is a very serious matter... etc etc

But you don't know that they are relying on law they don't understand, that's pure conjecture. They probably understand child protection laws very well, being a school and all, and have very very probably just done a typo, an error, and their decision to ban you from taking a photo of your pfb will be based on several laws, guidelines, policies and most of all experience of the general crowd control that a school/drama organisation has to manage. And not, as you accuse them, of Relying on law they don't understand.

It's a drama festival not a serious case review ffs.

And why the nasty twisty knickers metaphor/analogy/whatever? It's belittling my opinion as trite and silly - not very sporting really. I think that's the thing that's getting me about you, is that you're not prepared to accept other peoples views without minimising their argument.

OTheHugeManatee · 20/03/2015 14:36

God, I thought we'd all retired to variously lynch ourselves for poor attention to detail, or else to make up a few more amusing fictional laws. I truly cannot believe anyone is still griping at the OP and actually believing they have a point Confused

NanaNina · 20/03/2015 14:43

Ah I'm enjoying SPEROGATE - the thread is now far more interesting and the humour has returned, which has made me smile (a lot) I wonder Spero if you have ever thought of doing "stand up comedy" as a side line, and you could rest assured you couldn't be photographed, as to do so would be a breach of the Protection of Barristers Act 1896 - I love the Kruger Dunning thing (if that's the right spelling) and think that is an absolutely perfect example of what's been happening on this thread.

Now here's a thing - I take great pleasure from the "back and forth" humour and wit of Spero Chandler Bore and others, but know that I can't compete, and this can be demonstrated by my pathetic attempt in the above para. I was hoping the lawyers/scientists/and indeed anyone who is capable, would come up with legislation that MNHQ might have breached by sending that E mail to Spero

So come on you lot..........maybe a little competition to brighten up a Friday afternoon?

BUT on a serious note I am still wondering if MNHQ have actually detailed which of Spero's posts were perceived to be R and I
and the reasons for this perception. I think it is of vital importance that this is revealed, not just for Spero but for all of us who have been incensed by MNHQs E mail. Allegations must surely be evidence based ?? Are you interested in getting this information Spero

I think Spero's response to Olivia(MNHQ) was very measured and polite in the circumstances and was a good example of her style of posting and she gave MNHQ the opportunity to concede they got the tone of the E mail wrong, by stating that she thought the tone of the mail "was rather odd." A post of mine on this thread was deleted and when I queried why, I was given the comment that was perceived to be a personal attack and I disagreed. I explained that in my view a personal attack was a direct interaction between A and B and A made a personal, insulting, offensive attack on B which was likely to cause great distress. I asked if they had a different perception and got a reply saying "We know where you're coming from and it may have been better to call this comment inflammatory..."

I queried about decision making about deleted posts and the protocol on this issue as perceptions would differ but received no response.

I think now is the time for MNHQ to be more open with us and let us know how this issue is handled at HQ and how (and by whom) decisions are made to delete posts. I'd be interested to know if this decision is made by one employee or whether it is a collective decision. I don't know how many people are employed at MNHQ nor how they operate really, so it feels a bit like Big Brother sometimes.

Do any of you agree ?

I was once issued with an ultimatum about my posts - can't remember exactly how it was phrased but that was the message and was in relation to my posts, after being seriously provoked by ...........wait for it Spero none other than JH. In fact I was required to actually confirm that I would abide by the talk guidelines in future and I felt really aggrieved by this, but I felt I had no option. I have a mental health problem and the MH threads have been a lifeline to me in the past and I was very distressed at the threat that I would be banned from MN. In fact I felt backed into a corner and very disempowered.

I knew JH had reported you to the Bar Council Spero but "outing you in the Daily Mail" dear god - he could have chosen a quality newspaper. Another example of Kruger Dunning for sure!

Anyway Sainsbury's is calling.....so keep the humour up please, it is tremendous for lifting the spirits.

RosesAreMyFavourite · 20/03/2015 14:44

this is just the kind of comment I will dig up in my defence.

How on earth will that comment defend you and what for? I don't see it, sorry.

Chandler we don't need this kind of browbeating poster at all. It's really helpful to have posters with knowledge but not posters who patronise others and use aggression masked as humour to win their arguments and fight people off.

Grin
RosesAreMyFavourite · 20/03/2015 14:48

A craftsman never blames his tools Nananina.

Spero · 20/03/2015 14:48

Roses - Because in my view it was both rude and inflammatory.

you don't agree? Goodness gracious me! how is this possible!!!

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