Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

That someone is using a made up law to stop me taking a photo of my child

999 replies

Spero · 13/03/2015 15:25

My daughter is in her first ever drama festival. She is very proud and nervous. I want to take a photo of her. I am told I cannot due to the 'Child protection Act'. I am a family lawyer. I have never heard of this Act. Nor has Google.

So the objection is not that I may disrupt proceedings with annoying camera but that the mere act of taking an photo of my own child is somehow a child protection issue.

I am angry - not so much that I can't take a photo of my precious first born, but for what this reveals about the sloppy muddleheaded approach we seem to have about what 'child protection' really means.

AIBU to be so cross? Am contemplating stern letter of complaint. Making up legislation really isn't on.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2015 21:50

Does anyone want Spero to be banned?

ItsAllKickingOffPru · 19/03/2015 21:54

Arf @ anyone going to stick their hand up and go yes, me, I want the full Banhammer Force to come down on her rude, rude head!

Janethegirl · 19/03/2015 22:00

No I don't want Spero to be banned. She has very valid opinions and they are very well explained. Unfortunately she has to respond to numpties Grin

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/03/2015 22:14

Spero has crossed swords in the past with some people who would most definitely like to see her banned. Even 'outed' her in the DM, iirc

Hmmm...

Spero · 19/03/2015 22:19

ooooo! I hadn't thought of that.

To be fair, HQ have not suggested I will be banned, just suggested I need to be less 'rude and inflammatory' while failing to give me any examples to support this quite serious accusation.

However, it is going to be the inevitable consequence I imagine. I am not changing how I post - because I don't see why I should. Other people's fragile personalities are not my responsibility. I am sorry if that sounds harsh or dismissive but the stultifying consequences of allowing only opinions that offend no-one and upset no-one are pretty obvious and horrifying.

this is a thread I started. I didn't crash into someone's relationship thread and start being rude about them. People were rude to me and I responded. So that didn't like that. Boo hoo.

If that is behaviour that requires a ban, so be it.

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 19/03/2015 22:30

I've taken up Ici's suggestion and 'reported' your post with the MNHQ message in it Spero, in order to give them my views too.

Devora · 19/03/2015 22:44

Don't ban Spero! We need her for the inevitable return of our inebriated cat-loving friend...

Spero · 19/03/2015 22:53

bloody hell, if they think I am 'rude and inflammatory' I am not sure what words they would use for JH's forays onto the adoption threads....

I wonder if he ever got any emails?

Thanks Bore - I appreciate the support.

OP posts:
Spero · 19/03/2015 22:57

sorry Icimoi, should have said thank you too - I think its a good idea to give a possibly less distorted picture of what does and doesn't upset people on threads.

OP posts:
TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 19/03/2015 23:04

Hallo - good evening
Just to answer the reports on the thread (we will reply to them off board as well) [keyboard on fire this evening]

We have no intention of banning Spero over this -rest assured we don't ban folk lightly - and certainly not for complaints about one thread (tedious spammers/poo troll/perverts notwithstanding).

@Spero

What is bizarre is that there were at least 20 really offensive personal posts about me, which I didn't report because I don't see the point.

For the record though, we do ASK MNers to report personal attacks so that we can ensure that people are abiding by the guidelines.

And, in terms of dropping you a mail rather than saying things on the thread we have found through experience that this is the best MO for dealing with complaints. It's possible that the tone of our email wasn't ideal - for which apologies.

Please do report anything you would like US to take another look at - it's quite busy this evening and we may have missed something.
Thanks
MNHQ

PacificDogwood · 19/03/2015 23:05

I am Spero Wink

Yes, one does have to wonder whether the posters who felt 'pushed out' and complained to MNHQ have a bigger agenda

MNHQ, grow a pair!

PacificDogwood · 19/03/2015 23:07

Sorry, I x-posters with OliviaMNHQ - but really, I am surprised that this thread warranted an email to the OP.

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/03/2015 23:08

Thanks Olivia

Spero · 19/03/2015 23:10

thanks Olivia, I appreciate that response.

I will go through the thread and report those posts which I found personally offensive.

It is your site and you are perfectly within your rights to dictate the terms of our engagement on it.

However, I did find the tone of that email rather odd and I think a more direct approach would be more constructive.

OP posts:
TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 19/03/2015 23:15

@Spero

However, I did find the tone of that email rather odd and I think a more direct approach would be more constructive.

We've also noted this and will have a look into it going forward.

limitedperiodonly · 19/03/2015 23:18

Je suis Spero

But most mostly je suis aller to mon lit now.

NanaNina · 19/03/2015 23:19

Absolutely NO to Spero being banned, and I haven't seen any of her posts that are rude and inflammatory - as she says there have been many personal insults made to her by people who resort to such measures when they are in a hole and won't stop digging. Spero's responses to insults are always measured - indeed she seems impervious to insults, often using humour (or if she's really frustrated) sarcasm, but NO never rude or inflammatory - I will await with interest for evidence from MNHQ of their allegations.

The thread has taken many twists and turns and Spero's OP was simply that she was annoyed at being told she was not allowed to take a picture of her daughter who was performing in a drama festival based on specific legislation - one Act in particular caused her concern because she didn't think such an Act existed but as she delved deeper she discovered that it did exist BUT it only related to the taking of indecent photographs and so was irrelevant as she wanted to take a photo of her fully clothed daughter and no other children.

Nothing more nothing less

Competent lawyers need precise minds and need to pay attention to detail and ensure that they have a full working knowledge of the legislation related to the specialist area of law. Spero is an experienced and competent family lawyer and so it's perfectly understandable why she was irked at legislation being quoted that was irrelevant. It was "sloppy" on the part of the organisers, quoting several Acts, none of which were relevant in the sense that the taking of photographs of children was in any way illegal - hence the organisers had no right to prevent Spero or indeed* any other person taking photographs of their* children - it demonstrates that the organisers don't really understand child protection issues, and are muddled about this important issue. Spero has consistently pointed this out.

Many posters have failed to understand the issue and have tried to make it far more complicated than necessary and to say the "waters have got muddied is something of an understatement" Accusations have been made that Spero doesn't understand or care about child protection issues, (so insulting) she's "throwing her weight about as a lawyer" (or words to that effect), that she needs to accept that she can't take a picture of her "precious firstborn" for child protection reasons, and many others that I can't just bring to mind, but if I have to I am prepared to go back over the entire thread and itemise every such post. It's small wonder that she has got frustrated and resorted to sarcasm. But mostly she uses humour to diffuse poster's who want to insult her or attempt to prove she is wrong. Many posters have persisted in "arguing the toss with her" when they have absolutely no legal knowledge whatsoever which is arrogant to say the least. When this happens she politely asks if they will point out the part of the legislation that proves their point, and they usually disappear at that point, though some still persist..........and then she is told that it isn't fair to expect a lay person to have this kind of understanding of the law. And as she says NO it isn't fair but FGS why do these people persist in arguing with her on points of law.

I simply don't understand why people think they have more knowledge of the law than an experienced lawyer - I wouldn't dream of thinking I had more medical knowledge than a nurse or doctor, or a teacher, accountant, therapist, builder, plumber or whoever. My background is in social care and I too have been taken to task on threads by people questioning my social work practice when they have absolutely no knowledge of the nature of the work. I don't get it - I really don't. One of my posts was deleted recently on the basis that I had made a personal attack on someone. I have been in contact with MNHQ and stressed that I was aggrieved as I didn't consider my comment to be a personal attack, and they have conceded that it was probably more inflammatory - and I'm not in agreement but was going to let the matter rest. I queried how decisions were made about particular posts "breaking the Talk Guidelines" as I imagine there would be varying perspectives, but I haven't had a response.

I'm really upset - I've had a difficult day and came on this thread to cheer myself up because earlier I'd seen Spero and someone else posting pictures of their pets, and I was looking forward to more of Spero's humour and Chandler is also a lawyer and she too is very witty, but was really upset to see Spero's post about the e mail from MNHQ.

Totally unfair.

TheChandler · 19/03/2015 23:34

Goodness, if I also went through all the posts and reported those personally offensive about me, I'd keep mumsnet HQ up all night (because I tend to post on the Scottish independence threads). And its just a bit pathetic turning into a tittle-tattler tail-teller.

To be fair, HQ have not suggested I will be banned, just suggested I need to be less 'rude and inflammatory' while failing to give me any examples to support this quite serious accusation.

The fact is, some posters are lawyers. We are trained to respond in a certain manner. We don't do it out of character flaw or bad intentions. If mumsnet wants to have a variety of posters then they must be aware that many mumsnetters are lawyers. Barristers in particular, of which Spero is one, also tend to be quite characterful, and irony is a very standard technique often used in court.

All the above refers to what happens in the real world, not on the internet. I tend to prioritise employability over whatever quite frankly rather odd advice I occasionally get from posters on internet forums (one springs to mind recently about how I needed to be more something or other, I forget actually what, to make friends on mumsnet. I also find myself wondering how many of the more offensive posters who seem to have lot of spare time to "police" the internet and be professionally offended are even slightly employable. But I also prioritise my friends in real life and don't really see the internet as anything other than a forum for having discussions.

So I'm afraid from all of this, I've gained the impression that mumsnet is not a friendly place towards professional females. I've said before that mumsnet HQ is caught between a rock and a hard place, but I've also said that I think its a sign of weak management where idiotic complaints result in a rebuke to the innocent party whilst worst is ignored.

Overall, I cannot really be bothered with all this. Please don't send me any pms, mumsnet, I'm far too busy - I'd rather you banned me without any explanation.

TheChandler · 19/03/2015 23:41

*Nana Competent lawyers need precise minds and need to pay attention to detail and ensure that they have a full working knowledge of the legislation related to the specialist area of law.

That is exactly what lawyers do. We note mistakes and ask about them. If the answer is wrong or avoided, we ask again. And again. In different ways.

Spero to me is a poster who on this thread has been taunted and abused, and who has remained calm and polite, unlike some posters who have obviously been unable to win the argument by fair means so have resorted to complaints instead.

Does mumsnet really want a reputation for being a forum where the views of lawyers on the law are unwelcome?

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/03/2015 23:46

Oh Chandler, I just had the most vivid mental image of a Monty Python-style Banhammer suddenly smacking down on you Grin

Sorry

NanaNina · 19/03/2015 23:52

Couldn't agree more Chandler - I just hope MNHQ can in fact provide evidence to support the allegations they have made about Spero or if not, issue an unreserved apology, because if not, I fear she will leave - not flounce off as that's not her style at all, but as you say lawyers are trained to respond in a certain manner, and she might feel that she no longer wants to be associated with MN, which would be a tremendous loss.

I have also reported MNHQ to MNHQ.....

Spero · 20/03/2015 00:04

Well that was a supremely odd half an hour. I have just gone through 31 pages and reported everything that I think is 'rude and inflammatory'.

What a ridiculous and redundant exercise. I don't care if someone calls me 'an arsehole' or 'obtuse' or this or that.

But because I don't care and I didn't report, there is a risk that those who did care and did report can present a very distorted picture. I would be very interested to know if the people reporting me were the same people calling me 'obtuse' 'an arsehole' 'unpleasant' etc, etc.

I am prepared to bet large sums of money they were.

But who really cares? This is all so ridiculous and childish. I am not 8.

I hope that this has been a useful lesson for MNHQ in the ill advisability of throwing around terms like 'rude and inflammatory'. One person's 'rude and inflammatory' is simply another's robust common sense, stupid sarcasm or attempt at humour etc, etc, etc.

If we strip out of this thread every post which has the potential to offend somebody somewhere, I think there would be about half a thread left, if that.

Nana, thank you for your defence but please don't be upset. It's really not worth it.

And I agree with TheChandler. If the view is that my posting is unacceptable due to rudeness and inflammatoriness, please just ban me without further ado. No need for faux friendly cutesie emails.

OP posts:
Icimoi · 20/03/2015 00:50

The problem with Olivia's post is that, although it purports to answer the reports, it doesn't. I pointed out that I had seen nothing bullying, rude or inflammatory in Spero's posts. Spero asked what precisely was rude or inflammatory. The only response we have is a suggestion that the tone of MN's email might not have been ideal. Can we know whether MN actually do think that there was anything wrong with her posts, particularly in the contexts of the offensive posts she was replying to, and if so, why?

Spero · 20/03/2015 07:00

Yes, you have identified precisely the problem!

You did not find my posts rude or inflammatory - but quite few people did otherwise they wouldn't have complained. I thought my 'leering' remark was an obvious reflection of my frustration, some thought it funny, others thought it 'repulsive'.

In a neat way this has encapsulated the whole point of the thread. If we are going to object to what people do, to the extent that we are going to stop them doing it (either by forbidding photos or sending 'warning emails' about posting style) we really do need to be clear about the basis for our actions.

I can see what TheChandler is saying about professional women and I agree with it to a large extent. I don't think it is a prejudice against professional women per se but rather a reflection that some people do find it very difficult to be asked to justify their opinion and take it as a personal attack if you do. Whereas for some of us, that is what we spend our waking hours doing - arguing, and being told we are wrong and trying to show that we are not.

I think that some people do simply have personalties that are not robust enough to enable them to function well in this environment.

And yes, I should perhaps be more sensitive to that and reign in the sarcasm at times. But equally, others need to be more sensible in their reactions and realise that their opinion is not some sacred thing that must be protected unless their feelings get hurt.

And MNHQ need to be able to tell the difference between a nasty bully and someone who is simply making an argument and defending their position. Not easy I know, and they have my sympathies.

OP posts:
Kundry · 20/03/2015 07:28

Just delurking to say how very disappointed I am with mumsnet's response. If anyone has been bullying on this thread it has not been Spero.

The Mumnset email is thoughtless backing of the real bullies and essentially victim blaming.

I'm enjoying being on the site less and less recently and if Mumsnet has decided that it intends to back the pearl clutchers at the expense of genuine informed and expert posters it will be a lesser site for it.