to feel sad at NT resentment of / disgust at people with ASD

[kiritekanawa]

I guess it's like anything where the "better" people despise you for being inadequate - I tend to wonder why, if they're so much better, they don't have any spare mental capacity for kindness, empathy, compassion or humility.

Perhaps I'm too systematic in my approach to being nice, kind and compassionate, and reliable and dependable - but I refuse to be bitchy about others behind their backs, I refuse to change plans on a whim just to deliberately assert control over a situation in a way that makes it difficult for others, I stick to rules that make sense for the greater good (and quietly say nothing and ignore ones that are just silly). The NTs in my family all seem to spend their lives being bitchy, nasty, whimsical, selfish and unreliable - but they all despise me, think I'm humourless and unimaginative and a social weight around their necks.

My NT sister and BIL spend a lot of time rubbing my and my father's (ASD) noses in the fact that I and my father have embarrassed DSIS since I was born, and their child is SO MUCH better than me/DF IN SO MANY WAYS because their child is neurotypical. "D"SIS seems to resent everything I've ever done in my life, and gets together to recount stories of how my father and I are embarrassing and inadequate, with "D"BIL and our mother (who incidentally clearly also has ASD but lacks social insight to a point that she doesn't really see what she's being led into).

When I get together with my aspie academic friends - we don't spend the time bitching about our selfish, unreliable relatives - we talk about interesting ideas and stuff.

AIBU to get a bit depressed at being thought of as an embarrassment and a liability?

It sounds as if they are, and have been, treating you very badly, and YANBU to be upset by their treatment.

Can you spend less time with them, and more with friends and family members who do support and care for you and your dad?

YANBU and if this is what being NT means then hod help them. They sound absolutely horrible, and you and your friends sound lovely. I'd like to think that your Dad and sister aren't typical.

Sorry misread that - not your Dad, your sister and BIL.

They sound narcissistic, not NT, but that is by the bye... As someone who has multiple friends with Aspergers, several with physical disabilities and others with long term mental health problems I can honestly say that life is so much better and richer if you don't ever close the door on potential friendships. Your family are the poorer for being so narrow-minded and they do not deserve you.

Have you and DF ever sat down with your Dsis to talk about her feeling embarrassed growing up?

thanks. I just read the thread on here about someone being too embarrassed about her father's ASD to introduce him to her PIL-to-be and it all just hit me again how much some people seem to despise people who "aren't normal". In that case no-one seemed to think they could address the father directly about being rude, but they also didn't seem to think there was any difference between ASD, social liability, and being rude, racist, sexist and unpleasant.

Having ASD may make someone lack a social filter, which would be a social liability if you also happened to be arrogant and hold blinkered views about race, gender, etc.. However there's nothing that says ASD, blinkeredness and arrogance have to go together. At least with someone with ASD you can often address the person bluntly and call them out on their views and you'll get an honest discussion where you might get them to change their view.

TheXXed, well no - though she has sat us down to list our failings and recriminate us more times than I can remember. She has the moral high ground. We don't. What is really sad is that she is now teaching her young child to rip us to shreds and to absolutely despise anyone suspected of having ASD.

Niece was praised by DSIS and my mother, after she was openly, loudly criticizing the social manner of a relative with ASD, at our wedding. I said "for heaven's sake don't be such a bitch" to my mother, when she was gleefully recounting niece's "superior social judgement". This has been recounted ever after as a failing of mine, and evidence that people with ASD are nasty and have no manners.

She sounds pretty toxic can you avoid spending time with her? Could she be acting out of insecurity? She must realise that there's a significant probability of any future children or grandchildren of hers having ASD given the genetic link. Obviously it doesn't make her any more pleasant to deal with but might explain her horrible behaviour.

I am ASD my self (Aspergers/Dyspraxia and Dyslexia)

Decent people should take you for what and who you are, laugh with you about you idiosyncrasies , love listening to your in depth knowledge on subjects.

What is Normal ?. Can anyone define Normal... Because I can't

I really would like to know, if normal means 'quiet, boring' non emotional miserable and self centred you can keep it .

Anyway most 'normal' people are boring bland monotone people who lack any form of individuality ....

Remember that when they are making 'fun' of you, their bland boring lives !.

I think it's normal to tell embarrassing stories about your family. And your OP is quite bitchy itself. Are you sure your sister doesn't just not like you not doesn't like your disability?

She probably is acting out of insecurity.

See that's another thing. I would see it as my absolute duty to self-check as to whether I was being reasonable and appropriate around others. This wouldn't necessarily stop me from being rude to someone if I felt they deserved it on a single occasion (see point above re calling out my mother). It would, however, stop me from seeing my own instant emotional fulfilment as more important than lots of other things. If I were that insecure about something I'd think it was my personal duty to seek help, and to seek understanding of it until I could cope with it in a constructive and positive way - and I have done that in the past. I would not see it as a useful alternative course of action to use every social occasion possible to scapegoat members of my family for their perceived part in perceived unfairness in life.

I live in a different country. I see them as infrequently as possible. It doesn't make it any easier though.

This isn't really about NT v ASD, they just sound like they are really not nice people! Unfortunately in all walks of life and every situation there will be lovely people who boost you up, and bitchy people who drag you down. Try and distance yourself as much as possible (very hard with family I know) from people who drag you down and save your time and energy for those actually worth giving it to.

NeedABumChange - thanks for the alternative perspective.

I'm sure my sister both dislikes me individually, and my disability. The point I was trying to get some perspective on was the more general one about normal, loving, colourful, warm, friendly, delightful neurotypical people seeing people with ASD as unremittingly negative, unpleasant, boring, unspontaneous, humourless, etc.

Reading my OP I can see how it would come across as sanctimonious - it's not intended as such. I was trying to say "I come at this stuff systematically, I think this is how people should try to behave, so I make an effort to do it myself". I was kind of lamenting the fact that the people who despise me for being unspontaneous/humourless/a drag don't seem to feel any duty to try to behave well. It feels a bit one-sided and as though I can never possibly do anything but be a waste of space to them.

You sound lovely and insightful, and your sister and BIL sound awful, and as you say, lacking in compassion.

Needabumchange what the OP describes goes way beyond "normal embarrassing stories". And what about the way she is treating her father too?

Anyway most 'normal' people are boring bland monotone people who lack any form of individuality ....

Yeah, that's not unpleasant or rude at all

It sounds like you and your family don't get along - you have different ideas of how to treat each other (which may or may not be due to your respective ASD/NT status) and find it hard to meet in the middle.
Is there any way you can see the members of your family that you get on with and avoid those you don't?

DoJo - I email my father daily as the way fo "staying in touch" with the family. Realistically this means i email my father daily and the others never even pretend to read the emails. I see them twice a year for a week or two of being ripped to shreds for my inadequacies.

GreatAuntDinah - I think smokepole may have been valuing a show of compassion over precision in her post. The compassion is very welcome. Actually I think there's probably enough genetic/neurodevelopmental knowledge of mechanisms of ASD these days to be abel to define "normal" in apposition to ASD.

What is really interesting and valuable in smokepole's post is the idea that "NT" means "bland" - because at least among the people i know, the opposite would be true: the aspies are all normcore engineer types, the "NTs" are spontaneous, passionate, socially delightful, etc. But then my mother is stuck in the middle mimicking the NT behaviours but learning them by rote and with no idea what's beneath them (and sadly being led too easily). It says something - though not really sure what - about how different social perspectives can shape our picture of what is important in defining something like how ASD works.

I don't think they are typical of NT, people, I am having my son assessed at the moment, he does not know what the reason is as he thinks it is because of his "anger management" he asked for the help, which coincided with me finally getting his initial assessment.
His twins BFF is ASD and now attends a school with a specialist unit as main stream was not for him and lives the other side of town they still nag us mums to meet up after 2 years (still too young to make the journey independently at 9 and 10, massive bus station to contend with)
dt2 just said a month or so ago I think dt1 name you are autistic, just in conversation, I asked if it was a problem if he was.

No, it's why I like BFF, he likes the same things as me but his autism means he knows everything
And I think daddy is too.

Me and dh also think dh is, I realise that it is his autistic traits which are actually what initial attracted me too him, he is enthusiastic, knowledgeable, never boring his mind is constantly on the go, he struggles with some things but he is Mr research so overcomes that, then passes on his wisdom, resentful he became obsessed with the best way to change a duvet so for three weeks I did not have to change the bed, I did have to stand there and listen to the new wisdom, but heck, I didn't have to do it
He also helps at home without issue or asking because that's what you do, he can't understand why you wouldn't help.

Your family sound like they are the issue not you.

To be honest I love my small world of ASD as there is no game playing, life is about interest, caring.

Only thing I hate is dt1 does not need me in the way dt2 does, he rarely wanted cuddles I love cuddles, and once when I was away for 8 weeks, I would ask if he missed me and he would look at me like I was stupid and say no! You are always in my head.

I now take the no you are always in my head in a different light, it's nice to know I am ALWAYS in his head

Recently not resentful!

Niece was praised by DSIS and my mother, after she was openly, loudly criticizing the social manner of a relative with ASD, at our wedding. I said "for heaven's sake don't be such a bitch" to my mother, when she was gleefully recounting niece's "superior social judgement". This has been recounted ever after as a failing of mine, and evidence that people with ASD are nasty and have no manners.

I have just laughed out loud at this. The absurdity that it was the ASD pperson being a bitch for calling then on their bitchiness. I laughed because they were being so awful and could not see it.

To be honest I love my small world of ASD as there is no game playing, life is about interest, caring.

Precisely. I can't be faffed with the game playing. Well said missingmumxox.

And yes, I completely get the "you're always in my head" - I feel the same way about my DH. he's easier to deal with and much more predictable in my head than in real life

In you personal situation YANBU.

But to try and generalise it in the way you have is unreasonable. Your family does not represent the average NT person. You do not represent the average ASD person. You simply can't sterotype like that.

I know NT people who are the most wonderful, warm hearted, empathetic and inclusive people you could ever hope to meet. I also know NT people who could practically pass for sociopaths and are really unpleasant to be around.

I know ASD people who are also wonderful, warm hearted and inclusive (not sure about empathetic - most seem to struggle here but I'm sure not all all do). And I also know ASD people who will never be able to form a friendship or relationship with anyone.

So, on balance, although I think you are being treated badly, YABU

Blackeyed - your interpretation meshes with mine, but practically everywhere I've ever been I have ended up in situations like this, where someone is open-mouthed horrified at what a dreadful, total bitch I am because I've said or done something, or not said or not done something, because I was acting according to how I think I should behave as opposed to joining in with the deeply unpleasant prevailing social norm.

20 years out of school I'm still tripping myself up socially and school people still remember me as a complete weirdo

manicinsomniac - thanks for pointing that out. You are right and I agree with you.

To clarify, I was whinging specifically about NT people who think this way particularly about people with ASD, and I wasn't really thinking that of course making this a NT vs. ASD argument, rather than a specific case, means I am generalizing about NT and ASD behaviours. So it was a failure of construction of my argument rather than a complete failure of understanding (need to do better on that front).

Re: empathy and ASD - I think there are differences in how much emotion comes into feeling empathy, and then also in expressing empathy.

I can understand what people are feeling or experiencing - but I seem to be much more "numb" than most people in terms of having emotion get in the way of my understanding of situations. It just doesn't really come into how I look at things. I then have to try to express myself in a way that doesn't come across as callous and unempathetic. However, because I am starting in such a different place and perhaps i'm concentrating on too many other things to really be watching how "normal" people behave and copying them perfectly, I'm unlikely to know to behave "properly".

For example at a funeral, without being told that some people would really want me to have my eyes fill with tears and would want me to wrap my arms around them, and that they would feel I was a sociopath if I didn't, I'm unlikely to do more than talk quietly and sympathetically, because the big wailing and crying in public thing just isn't something i'd do and I'd prefer to grieve honestly. This tripped me up recently and I had some old school people turn on me because I was apparently sociopathic for not crying at a school friend's funeral. I'd think it was more sociopathic to be attention-seeking and make a dishonest show of emotion.

I don't think it's fair to stereotype and agree with what manic said above

But you are being treated badly by them and I sympathise

I think with most NT people unless they have personal experience of ASD like close friends/family they don't always realise that someone is the way they are due to ASD, and that person socially seems different to what they expected of them - so they judge/respond to someone with ASD in the same way they would if an NT person behaved like that.

I think greater awareness of our differences and if we could get away from the culture of viewing each other as less in some way, for example Some people describe their ASD as a gift in that it helps them see the world this way etc, and then NT people do the same thinking they're gifted because they have this special social navigation system. If we could get to a place where we just simply have differences - neither better or worse that would be good