"Benefits are a lifestyle choice for so many these days"

[Bellerina2]

I'm on the bus and two women behind me are having a long conversation about perceived benefit cheats and one of them just said the above phrase. WIBU to hit her over the head with a rolled up copy of the Guardian??

But seriously, it's so depressing that people think this. Well done to the government and likes of the Sun and Daily Mail for convincing people that those on benefits are leading some sort of charmed life

I love the notion that anyone who disagress with Dawn et all are all thick DM readers .

Not so thick we can't hold down professional jobs, though and not need NON DISABILITY RELATED benefits.

What I would consider thick and cuntfarty is repeatedly banging on about disability on a threda that has fuck jack all to do with it.

Really? Despite the fact that I, and others have explained, really quite clearly what disability does have to do with it, you're convinced it has nothing to do with it.

anyway I think people have brought disability into it as these are the only people we know on this holy grail of 'full benefits'.
I would not defend a system that makes it harder to work than not.
This system was invented as a policy of 'divide and rule' do people not see that?
Well I suppose this thread exemplifies that if we all just stop and think a bit.

But using your disadvantaged background as an excuse not to do well in school, enter a profession or make responsible life-choices is a complete cop-out.

An excuse?

Do people, generally, REALLY use disadvantaged backgrounds as an excuse? Or do they find it difficult if not impossible, for a complex mix of reasons, to do well/make responsible choices etc?

I believe the latter. A lot of posters on here obviously believe the former, and I suppose we're never going to agree. But personally I find it saddening and also quite vile that posters would rather assume that a person would choose to deliberately 'cop out' of having a good life, than find a tiny bit of compassion and think that perhaps, just perhaps, sometimes people have genuine reasons for not succeeding in life.

And these anecdotes posters keep wheeling out as evidence are just that: anecdotes. Meaningless and worthless.

She is correct though? I know people who have their home paid for, get paid not to work and smoke weed all day. Absolutely nothing wrong with this person. Quite able to work. Just too lazy. Pisses me off because I know many people need the money.

Dawn, you have explained why you think that benefits are relevant to other means-tested benefits. I disagree.

OK, in capitals for emphasis not for shouting: THAT IS AN ANECDOTE, NOT DATA.

The percentage of people 'fiddling' the system and committing benefit fraud is tiny. It costs the government and the hallowed 'taxpayer' buttons.

No-one has a problem with disability benefits. The issue is with those who are perfectly able to work but abuse the system because they have no intention of working.
I know plenty of those. To pretend that they don't exist is beyond stupid.

anyway I think people have brought disability into it as these are the only people we know on this holy grail of 'full benefits'.

Who are you referring to in the "we" here?

We have a serious drug operation on my street. It is run by several young lads who live in a string of HA properties. If they can operate a drug ring and ride bikes around the block repeatedly until they meet their customers, is it OK for me to assume that they do not have hidden disabilities?

by 'we' I meant myself and whoever else was talking about disabled people on benefits. Obviously.
If you have a problem locally I suggest you contact the police.

Only

You do know that stats can be fiddled to suit a purpose, no? Quite obviously, the stats of people fiddling the system is hard to come by... otherwise, no one could do it. No one - apart from the most stupid of people - is going to tell officials the truth about their fiddling. They might, however, tell a neighbour, etc.

Oswin I did not imply all women on benefits who've suffered DV are playing the victim. I implied a history of DV is not an excuse for claiming long-term benefits! Many women experience DV but many support themselves and their child as a single parent. Two of my friends suffered DV and left their partners when pregnant but neither claimed benefits, they both worked full time and supported themselves. They took responsibility for their lives and set a good example. Should they have given up, claimed benefits instead and declared they were 'unable to work' because their partner had abused them and they had no means to support themselves without him? Yes that is playing the victim. When you decide to have a child with someone you need a back-up plan in case it goes wrong. DV affects all sorts of women, including those who plan their pregnancies and are willing and able to pay for nursery or work from home!

by 'we' I meant myself and whoever else was talking about disabled people on benefits. Obviously.

That's not what you said, is it? You said that the people who "we" know who are on "full benefits" are disabled, and that's why disability is dragged into this. But I have neighbors who are able-bodied (see my post above) unemployed, engaged in illegal activity, and have HA flats worth over 1M GBP so your comment is not true (obviously).

If you have a problem locally I suggest you contact the police.

I have. Incidentally, the HA can't even do anything if one of their tenants shows up at my door and accuses me of reporting them to the police (even if they're arrested!). That's not an evictable offense.

well I am sorry to hear of your troubles goodbyetoallthat, I really am, it sounds like shit. But arguing the finer points of anecdotes with me is not really going to help. What should the HA do about someone knocking on your door? If you are being harassed, phone the police again and again and again. and again.

Sunny So you don't want people to talk about experiences at all because it's not represented in numbers???

That seems to be what a lot of these "anecdote" comments are about.

Many say that abusing the system is proportionally rare. Well, there are many people in the UK. Having... say... 0.5% abusing the system (it's probably more than that) still equates to 320,000 people.

320,000 people is a lot.

no Millie that was not what I said was it?
If you are going to try and twist people's words, you will have to do better than that.

I'm afraid invoking Hitler is so well known as a last ditch strategy for winning arguments that it has it's own wikipedia page.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I am a socialist, actively despise the Tories and coalition strategy, I think our economic problems are down to greed, exemplified by the bankers, tax avoiding corporations and the higher echelons of the Conservative party. They distract us from the real issues by demonising those on benefits.

Now having said that I do, personally know (Anecdote not data) two people who have actively chosen to live on benefits. They have chosen not to work - I know one of them because my company offered her her old job back once her youngest child was a toddler, she had been a good worker. She said she would not be making any more money by working so she stayed on benefits. Now her attitude pissed off a lot of people who know her who were working - especially the other single mother who had put her child with a cm in order to get back into the workplace. People who do work hard, and struggle, who know people who choose not work hard but rely on the state, will get pissed off and will easily get convinced by the Right that this is a huge problem and is what is bleeding us dry. It is not as huge a problem as the tax avoidance by big companies, or the fact that companies don't pay living wages, or that foreign property speculators have caused housing in London and the SE to be out of reach for most people.

So I agree with both sides here - there are people how actively choose a benefits lifestyle, but that is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with those being thoroughly screwed by capitalism as it exists ATM. They are A problem, but they are not THE problem.

Well, there are many people in the UK. Having... say... 0.5% abusing the system (it's probably more than that) still equates to 320,000 people. 320,000 people is a lot.

It is not a lot statistically, though, is it? Which is the point. We can choose: we can accept that, with any benefit system, a small number of people will take advantage of it, shrug our shoulders and say 'Even if a few abuse it, more will benefit from it than abuse it'; or we can froth about 0.5% of people abusing it.

A choice between accepting a few outliers as an inevitable result of a good system, or going round pointing fingers at individuals who represent a tiny tiny fraction of the numbers benefiting from the system.

You do know that stats can be fiddled to suit a purpose, no? ... No one - apart from the most stupid of people - is going to tell officials the truth about their fiddling.

So which is it? Are you saying that the DWP or whoever compiles the stats is fiddling them? Or that individuals don't tell the truth about their benefits?

Thanks for that lioner. I did actually mention Godwin at the time of posting. On occasion there are parallels and it is reasonable and valid to draw attention to them.

loiner, Dawn pre-empted accusations of invoking Godwin's Law by invoking it herself in the quote below.

Before anyone shouts Godwin, look at history.

I have to say that invoking Godwin in this case seems to me eminently justified.

Oh, sorry, Dawn, x-post.

What should the HA do about someone knocking on your door?

I suggest if someone is arrested for turning up on a neighbours doorstep, threatening them, they should be evicted.

OnlyLovers

butterfly2015 Tue 17-Mar-15 09:17:20
We do not get a single penny towards our housing costs. Neither of us can work but the mortgage needs to be paid so it comes out of what we get. Which quite frankly is not very much. A joint esa claim gives us £110 a week as a couple. If you think that's enough to live on please show me how.

that cant be right,you should be able to get some interest paid on your mortgage,£110 joint ESA thats not right either,the sums dont add up,are you getting all the premiums you are entitled to,have you been put in a group support etc,i really dont understand how yours is so low

this is my circumstances

ESA £180 a week including all related premiums

PIP £82 enhanced care a week

CB £45 a week

CTC£161 a week

rough total £460 cash as such for one adult 3 dependent children

dont pay any cocuncil tax,and my mortgage is paid of so no housing benefit or interest paid

£2k a month tax free plus free school meals, prescriptions etc??

So far from impoverished as some would claim it's a joke.