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AIBU?

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To really dislike the term 'tolerant' and its modern usage.

45 replies

fakenamefornow · 03/03/2015 18:10

Usually used these days to describe Muslims or sometimes other religions, or rather the rest of societies view of them.

Some religious/cultural practises/views I will never tolerate, FGM, bombing abortion clinics, forced marriage, treating daughters very differently to sons. I will not hold my tongue on these things.

Other stuff, dressing differently, not eating pork, fasting for Ramadan, not having an abortion yourself. Why would I not agree with it or feel it's something I don't like but put up with, I'm completely indifferent to any of that stuff. I don't need to be tolerant of these things because there's nothing to tolerate.

IMO it makes it sound as though some sections of society are doing something we disapprove of, or should disapprove of, and aren't the rest of us great for allowing them this freedom.

OP posts:
FloatIsRechargedNow · 03/03/2015 19:29

Oh Fake off - truly do - the deep-rooted linguistic meaning of the word tolerant hasn't nor won't be altered for anything to do with "Muslims" or any other group of people specifically.

People have either been tolerant or intolerant of my ASD son and myself when he used to kick off in public. They weren't either form of tolerant, which they clearly were (even if they were intolerant ifyswim!) based on whether or not we were "Muslims".

fakenamefornow · 03/03/2015 19:30

Lack of prosecutions is due to lack of evidence, not because the nation tolerates it.

There is plenty of evidence, other European countries have had plenty of successful prosecutions, we have lacked the political will to do something about it.

OP posts:
Alisvolatpropiis · 03/03/2015 19:32

You understand that European countries don't have the same legal systems as each other, never mind the same legal system as England and Wales?

CupidStuntSurvivor · 03/03/2015 19:33

We have plenty of evidence? Beyond reasonable doubt type evidence? And I'm supposed to believe this on your say so alone? Do back up what you're claiming.

fakenamefornow · 03/03/2015 19:33

Yes I do.

OP posts:
Alisvolatpropiis · 03/03/2015 19:34

Oh right, so the previous comment about other countries prosecutions was completely and utterly fatuous then, rather than being made out of simple ignorance.

fakenamefornow · 03/03/2015 19:35

That is why I don't like 'we need to tolerate gay people' etc.
I don't want tolerance, I want acceptance.

Yes exactly!

OP posts:
PrettyFeet · 03/03/2015 19:36

Apparently Im a very intolerant person Grin

Neither do I agree with any form of religion but I do "tolerate" some of it.

DioneTheDiabolist · 03/03/2015 19:37

What did the police say when you presented them with the evidence you have OP?

PrettyFeet · 03/03/2015 19:46

Didn't you know you cant start an OP on here unless you have a doctorate in the subject Grin

Alisvolatpropiis · 03/03/2015 19:50

It helps be at least slightly informed if you're going to start discussing a topical hot potato such as FGM, *Pretty^

alwaysstaytoolong · 03/03/2015 20:12

There's a huge difference between tolerance and/or acceptance of unacceptable behaviours and acts and actually understanding the complexities of culture/Religion/upbringing leading to it.

I am absolutely not tolerant of FGM, forced marriage or radicalisation into terrorism but I have worked within Muslim communities and no one ever said I should be tolerant of those issues nor are the majority of people in those communities tolerant of those issues.

And your claim that FGM is ignored is frankly bollocks. I have personally known of children taken into LA care due to concerns around possible planned FGM and have received phone calls from GPs or other NHS or non - stat agencies concerned that service users of mine were going on trips to countries where FGM may be performed.

I've also worked in prisons where inmates possibly vulnerable to radicalisation were identified and intervention put in place. Always involving Muslim Imans and other Muslim community leaders.

Your posts come across very much as someone with an anti Islamic opinion and agenda and I have no time for that.

Because you're talking bollocks basically.

PrettyFeet · 03/03/2015 20:39

Nothing wrong with just saying it really, we all have views and opinions, however well read we are. It seems many think its some kind of "competition" to be the best.

We all come in the same way and we all go out the same way, no one is any "bette"r than anyone else.

Now that is a good philosophy to have/keep in mind.

PrettyFeet · 03/03/2015 20:42

Religion is a form of "control" and unfortunately most of it aimed at keeping women in their "place" and yes the Muslim religion is great at that Grin

PrettyFeet · 03/03/2015 20:45

Or should I have said "islamic" silly me Grin

fakenamefornow · 05/03/2015 14:01

My Muslim friends, I don't tolerate them, I love them.
My Muslim acquaintances, I don't tolerate them, I like them.
Muslims I don't know, I don't tolerate them, I am indifferent to them or rather I care about them as a fellow human being, as much as anyone else.

None of the groups above I tolerate, because there is nothing to dislike about them to be tolerant of. David Cameron is often heard saying what a tolerant nation we are when talking about the Muslim communities. Using the word tolerant implies there is something fundamentally unpleasant about whichever group you are talking about, I take serious issue with this. I'm not a fan of DC but I honestly don't believe that implication is his intention but because of his choice of words the implication is there.

Another word I dislike the use of is 'moderate' as in moderate Muslim. imo we don't have moderate Muslims and extremist Muslims, we have Muslims and extremist Muslims. The only group outside the norm and therefore needing the qualifier is the extremist. Using the word moderate seems to tell us "it's ok, these ones are nice" we don't need it, the fact is most are nice and so that should be the assumption. No other group that I can think of has this qualifier on it, we don't say 'moderate Christians' to distinguish them from the ones that blow up abortion clinics. The assumption (rightly so) is that Christians aren't extremists, the same should be true of Muslims so no need to spell it out by attaching the word 'moderate' just so we can be sure.

imo language is a very powerful tool and can shape our thinking. I accept that words do change their meaning overtime though so perhaps the word 'tolerant' for most people no longer means to put up with something you don't really like and means something else now. I still take the not really liking something meaning though, that's why I don't like it.

FGM, I don't claim to be an expert and only know what I've heard on the news over the years. I did write and deliver an extended essay on it about 25 years ago as a student though, it was called 'female circumcision' back then. imo FGM is a much more accurate term and conveys the horror of what this is much better (see point about language above). When I presented this essay about half the class had never even heard of it and once everybody did know about it, about half the class didn't think it was important as it didn't affect them anyway so it's not our business. One person was particularly vocal that the rest of society should just keep it's nose out, even quoting Maya Angelou (I think) who had a similar stance on this.

I think the UK has done a very poor job protecting children from FGM and seeking justice for them after the event. I think in all the time it has been illegal, much of that time has been characterised by a distinct lack of interest. Now I may be wrong, it may be true that every single child over the last thirty years thought to be at risk of this form of abuse has had stringent child protection measures put in place to protect them. And that every suspected case has been reported to the police by professionals or members of the public and the police have vigorously investigated every single one. I don't believe this is the case though. If I'm right then that raises the much bigger and more troubling question of 'why not' why haven't we protected these children.

I know FGM is a complicated issue, and within a family it's a one-off (but extremely serious with life long consequences) episode of abuse within an otherwise normal home life for a child. I can't help thinking that societies response would be a lot stronger if it were the sexual organs of boys being mutilated to the point that they could never enjoy sex though.

Fully expecting certain posters to come along calling me an islamophobic cunt for my views on the use of language and FGM and telling me to fake off and then fake of some more. Oh and that actually the UK is doing a fantastic job protecting children from FGM and couldn't do more.

OP posts:
fakenamefornow · 05/03/2015 21:20

And as for the comments that there has never been enough evidence, do you seriously believe than in the 30 years fgm has been illegal every case has been thoroughly investigated and in not one case have the police ever been able to find enough evidence to successfully prosecute? Or do you think something else might be going on causing us to fail these children?

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheep · 05/03/2015 21:23

FGM isn't not a Muslim practice

fakenamefornow · 05/03/2015 21:32

I know, and I have not once referred to it as such.

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wanttosqueezeyou · 05/03/2015 22:06

Totally Agree with you on fgm. No prosecutions (other than the recent farce), despite thousands of cases. That sounds pretty tolerant to me. A disgrace.

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