Who is BU here - us or landlord?

[TicklishSpider]

Namechanging for this because maybe identifiable plus am scared of AIBU.

Last year our landlord told us she wanted to sell. Not great timing for us because we had a newborn at the time but okay, it's her property. We started making plans to move, rented a storage unit, etc., but then the valuation came back lower than she'd hoped. She said she'd have a think and be in touch, then dropped out of contact and that's the last we heard from her for about a year.

Meanwhile, I went back to work after mat leave, got made redundant, and found a new job. New job is great but a) will probably mean moving across the country and b) doesn't start till autumn.

LL has just been in touch again to say she's selling now, but wants us to get to stay as long as possible, both for our benefit and to cover the mortgage. Any sale shouldn't be completed until July at the earliest by her estate agent's reckonings, so we can stay until at least then, but in the meantime can we keep place in viewable condition for viewers, etc. OK, that's a hassle with Hurricane Toddler around and I don't like the idea of potential buyers traipsing in and out of my home, but we can manage. Main problem is that if it's July, that would be really difficult though - for various reasons we can't move to the city where I'll probably be working until August at the earliest, ideally later.

So we replied to say: we don't mind viewings, we'll keep the place looking good, arrange times for home report and photos in show-home condition and everything with agents as asked, but if it's July that would make it really hard for us because of jobs/moves/etc., could you please please please give us until early August? (This would be 3 weeks after the date she gave as absolute earliest we'd have to leave.)

And she said no. If it's not sold until August then of course we can stay until then, but she wants to offer maximum flexibility to buyers and let them move in on short notice if they want. (We have a 2-month notice period in our lease but it sounds like she thinks she's given us notice already, albeit without a date, so doesn't need to give us two months of warning at that point and can just let the buyers pick date of entry. This worries me.)

We'll just have to lump it anyway really, I'm sure we can stay in MIL's spare room for a month or two if needed (far from ideal though that would be), but are we BU to be really a bit annoyed about all this?

You're not at all obliged to allow viewings, a fact that you should be pointing out to her now, it might focus her mind on being a bit more reasonable.

FRom the sound of it she won't give you notice, she needs you to pay the mortgage until its sold. You need to tell her that she has the entirely wrong idea about how all this works, the cards are very much in your hands and not hers.

Another landlord here too and YANBU at all.
I don't see why she can't exchange with a prospective buyer on the proviso that the completion date works for you too. Most - but not all - lenders want vacant possession but some can be flexible so you might have a change of landlord but be able to stay until August.

Stand your ground OP.

There has to be a specific provision in the lease to allow access by the landlord- it should also specify the purpose for which the landlord is permitted access.

Ps, don't tell her she has to give two months' notice while there is still time for her to do that!

Following with interest as we are landlords about to start the process of selling a tenanted property. Have just sent a letter to our tenant outlining our plans and hopefully we will be able to work together rather than against each other....

It has to be in writing, from the point of them sending the letter it is two months.

It could take 9 months to sell the place, theres no way on earth she would give you two mins notice now if you pissed her off.

You are well within your right to have two months notice.

If you want more umpf to this when you approach her about it, get some advice from CAB.

I think you have nothing to lose by saying that after thinking about it, it's too inconvenience, and you've changed your mind!

If you lease allows for her having access... It still has to be reasonable. You could say that you think one saturday morning a fortnight between 10-12.also you could negotiate that you will have one open day instead.

If she goes mad... You could just say fine.. Give her 4 weeks notice and leave early... She won't want this as she'll lose too much rent... This shows her you won't be messed aroubd.

We bent over backwards to be nice... Had major plumbing work the last couple of weeks we were there, electrician,s, their parents, children... All to benefit her and at substantial detriment to us. We begged for a few extra weeks.. FiL was in ICU and I was ill awaiting major surgery,and we were finding it difficult to find somewhere we could move to.. She said no..
Then we took the gloves off.... When we realised we were being really helpful and she was shafting us....

wow, look at all these landlords on your side. And yet MN tells you we are all grabby bastards...Surprising, isn't it?

regardless of the contract, you do not have to allow anyone in except in emergency, same as if you owned the place. So any viewings you allow are favours.

Her obligations are to give you two months correctly timed and correctly formatted notice in writing (or longer if you have a fixed term tenancy). This doesn't actually mean you have to move out on that day, it just tells you on which day eviction proceedings could start crawling through courts. This could take another few months.

I am not of course saying that you'd refuse to leave - but because you can, no sale can complete until you have physically gone. This is why landlords who want to sell a tenanted property to anyone except another landlord need to take the hit and issue notice to the tenants. She may want to allow people to move in at short notice but it won't happen; no half-competent solicitor will let the transaction complete until the place is empty. Repeat - not happening.

she wants it both ways and it doesn't work like that.

way forward? Assuming you don't want to push her into giving notice now (which neither of you want anyway), I suggest stating the position, agreeing a departure date for you and asking her to issue notice for that date - nothing to stop notice being longer than two months. You then offer to allow viewings at convenient timeslots, e.g. occasional open house sessions. Everybody wins.

this doesn't remove the risk to buyers that you won't go, but it shows them that a plan is in place.

if she won't play, then your risk is that she gives you two months notice at any time. Her risk is that you decide to go early (1 months notice from you) or stop all viewings, both of which you are fully entitled to do. It won't sell without viewings...

I would start looking now if I were you, just to see what there is around. Yes they have to give (as everyone else states) two months in writing.
If you do leave make sure you give your notice properly too as otherwise they will withhold your deposit! They seem sneaky if you ask me.

I was renting from a LL once and he put the house on the market without telling me. One Saturday morning I was in the shower and I heard voices downstairs. There was an agent and a couple viewing the house! They had keys and had let themselves in!! Luckily DP was there to tell then I was in shower.
Why I got dressed and waited outside for them to finish the veiwing I don't know! The agent didn't even know there was a tenant there.
The house was being sold as the owners were getting a divorce but I wasn't privvy to that information. They denied even having a tenant, until I went to the eatste agents with my Council Tax bill!
Also turned out they were having viewings whilst I was at work and agent throught my stuff all belonged to the person that owned the house!

If I were you (and could afford it) I would get out now, get a 6 month contract somewhere where the landlord will leave you alone without the stress of viewing appointments and trying to keep a house tidy with a toddler about (very difficult) and that 6 months will expire just as you are ready to move on.

If you stay put, keep in mind that she has not given you notice yet. Giving you notice with no end date on doesn't count. Don't alert her to this yet or she'll do it properly - with any luck you'll be able to stay till August anyway because you can't be evicted unless the landlord gets absolutely everything right and she seems a bit too scatterbrained for that so you'll end up being able to stay.

She can't have her cake and eat it. Selling a property with a tenant in place has all sorts of inherent pitfalls, like no guarantee that the tenant will let in viewers, have the house looking nice for viewers, or will leave quietly when the sale goes through. Balanced against that is the advantage of having the mortgage paid during the months it takes to sell. She can't have that advantage without risking the disadvantages. It's not your problem either, you have no obligation to make this easy and cheap for her.

I think she sounds inflexible. So do what suits you. And I would think she has to give you two months notice in writing with a date. Do everything to suit yourself. She is.

She wants it all, doesn't she? Somewhere along the line this is going to bite her in the arse.

OMG, LL wants her own way and nothing but.
That's coming from a LL myself.
The house could sell within weeks, they are round here.
What area are you in and how quickly are others selling.
She has to give you at least 2 months notice with a final date. As others have said you aren't obliged to keep the house in showhouse condition and can dictate when people view.
Do make sure you specify this and be prepared for EA to try to get you to do things you don't have to, they are working on behalf of your LL and will want a quick sale for their profit.

I agree with stayathomegardener, am a landlord too.

It's not just a question of giving you notice, that notice has to be served correctly. Look on Moneysavingexpert for a wealth of advice.

Has your deposit been protected in time, with one of the approved organisations? If not, a S21 would be invalid and it would take a court order to get you out.

She has to shit or get off the pot. If she wants to dictate when you leave then she has to give notice now and risk an empty property for months. Or she needs to accept that you will still be there at point of sale.
She's not going to give you notice now and risk months of no rental income! But if she does, that's 2 months from your next rent date (not the date of the section 21) plus 4 months to go through the eviction process, takes you to September. Relax, the cards are in your hands. You will not be forced to leave before September and that's f she was stupid enough to issue notice now.
I'd get back to her and say 'on reflection we can agree to viewings only once a week/fortnight at x time' and don't mention notice or leaving dates at all.

I'd be inclined to offer fixed days/times for EA appointments and if a open house arrangement would be possible, offer that? The EA must give at least 24 hours of any appointment and must never, ever let themselves in without your express (and I suggest written) permission.

She has to give you proper notice and that has to be the minimum of 2 months FROM THE PAYMENT/CONTRACT DATE. so if your payment is made on the 15th of the month, and she wants to serve notice today, she can, but the notice period runs FROM the 15th, so the notice would be 2 months FROM the 15th. Without this notice, don't leave unless you want to. you give HER 1 months notice only.

She won't give you notice, not when she wants the mortgage covered, and even if she did, you can refuse to leave and make her get you out if it really came to it, but indeed that is not a nice way to live and it will stress you out somehow.

You will know best the speed at which property is selling there, but I reckon if she is as clueless as this in terms of rental law, she'll be looking to sell for an unrealistic price so doubt it will shift too fast...

the other option is that the LL PAYS you to leave when it suits - as soon as she gets the offer/contract exchanged, if you give a months notice it shortens the process, all being well.

this LL is really out of their depth and I would check that the deposit is secure and that all the other legal obligations are fulfilled.

A lot of good posts here but special's is particularly clear.

The way I see it, the ball is in your court. If you haven't already, get your moving plan in action. Contact the agents/LLs in your new city with your details, specifications, and approximate move time - eg August/September. Be confident and fair in your approach with LL - viewings at times that are convenient to you, not being under pressure to keep a show home for the next 4-6 months just in case. Think of it as doing her a favour, not an obligation.

If she serves you notice properly then so be it, you'll have 2 months to work out what you want to do before having to exit the property. However I doubt she would want to serve you notice now and get you out asap when it seems she wants to keep you in for as long as possible to cover costs. I'd be inclined to find out if the agents are aware you're in there too and give them your contact details so that they can seek permission from you directly to enter the property. They can't just rely on the LL if the LL also has to contact you for permission to enter the property. I feel that way only because your LL isn't doing things in the right way.

Do you have a deposit? Basically a lot of tenants are quasi "sitting tenants" as the deposit legislation is so tricky most landlords and agents get it wrong. Getting it wrong means no s21 Notice can be served until things are regularised (takes ages!).

Another landlord (and tenant) here. You can definitely refuse access and she would actually need a court order before she can set foot in, otherwise you can claim harrassment. I know this because we have some very unreasonable, non-rent paying tenants who won't let the agency inspect the property. I looked up their rights.

as an aside as it sounds as if you have a clueless landlord; just to check that your deposit protection is 100% (in one of the recognised schemes and you have been given the information) and that you have a current gas safe cert if the property has gas.

if she is delinquent on the deposit, no notice she gives is valid, and she can't protect it retrospectively.

if no gas safe she is breaking the law (and of course putting you at risk)

oops, cross-posts!