to think this is a depressing headline: Childcare costs and the luxury of working mums

[toots111]

This is Mumsnet's 'Blog of the Day' today: www.mummysays.net/2015/02/19/childcare-costs-luxury-working-mums/

I'm frustrated that the challenges that working parents face is often just positioned as an issue for mothers. And not fathers. Surely, if a child has two parents, the issue of paying for childcare if they both want to work is a joint issue, and not a mum's issue. It also reinforces the expectation that women earn less than men (and it's pin money not real money) whereas in my experience pretty much all my female friends earn more than their male partners.

This is not a SAHM / WOHM thread, just a rant about headlines that are unhelpful.

I know where you are coming from however, in the majority of cases the question is whether the lowest paid partner's net salary covers childcare and the cost of working and in most cases the lowest paid partner is the woman.
I do think it would be interesting to focus on why this is the case. eg why do women earn left before children?

I agree!!!

I read the headline differently so I didn't feel the same way you did.

I think it's a good article and it certainly applies to my family.

It's also circular. I was the one who stayed off work because my DH earns more than me. Obviously, a couple of the reasons women earn less are BECAUSE they stay off with children. So my DD will likely earn less than a men for the same work and so it goes on. We couldn't have lived on just my wage and stayed in our house so it wasn't an option.

If all your female friends earn more than their male partners, you have a statistical anomaly because on average women earn less than men.

Agreed! I do not understand why childcare costs are talked about as an issue for 'working mums'. Don't 'working dads' also have a stake in it?

When I vote it will be decided on Scottish independence, environmental issues, the NHS, how I think parties will treat those in receipt of benefits (so you're out, Cameron).
It won't have a single thing to do with the cost of childcare or the fact I own a vagina, or that frigging pink bus.

YANBU. Why are working mums a luxury? Because society sees looking after children as women's responsibility, so if they can't make it work then tough, they have to stay at home.

If you read the blog post she says that eventually her husband cut down his hours to reduce their need for childcare. A simple, effective solution. No need for hand-wringing.

Why should women give up their careers entirely when it is entirely possible for a huge proportion of men to do the same thing - cut down their hours while kids are young so both partners can work?

Yes! This was my point really. The article wasn't actually about her having to give up work. It was about how they both had to be flexible to make it work. Which is not a Mums issue. It's a parents issue.

As usual women and the government are expected to solve a problem created by men.

MrsTerryPratchett I agree it's circular. I was on a leadership course recently and they addressed gender issues. They basically said that there is an unconscious bias in a lot of organizations where when a man becomes a parent they are seen as now having to be the 'breadwinner' and are perceived as more stable and are seen as better candidates for promotions etc as they have to earn more money. But women when they become parents are seen as now having to be the 'caregiver' and they are seen as being less stable and less likely considered for promotions.

Which I guess is why I think headlines like this are helpful. The more we can repositioned 'child issues' such as childcare as 'parents issues' not 'mothers issues' then these biases can be challenged / addressed.

Out of curiosity sovery - would it have been possible for your DH to reduce his hours to ease the burden?

Let the cost of childcare make working too expensive.
leads to:
One parent (ideally the mother) has to stay at home.
Leads to:
Women back in their rightful place (emphatically not my view).
Leads to:
More jobs for men.

Before I get howled down, note how well this fits the UKIP/Tory voters idea of society (i.e. Victorian).

That's if anyone can remember yesterdays news about the jobless totals as well as todays news.

Or am I too cynical.

Nope Lurking, you're not too cynical.

Where are all the articles about how current work systems are unsuitable for parents? Or about how many men struggle with the perception that they shouldn't take time off for children?

Also what I find interesting is something I see here and in rl is the comment that ooh well mums wages wouldn't cover childcare but in all other conversations about household costs it is we are saving for or buying X . Why is childcare a cost for the mother as if it were tampons or getting highlights.

Yanbu.

Because men don't actually have children do they coffee? They generously accommodate the annoying women who insist on having them. Hence the endless threads on MN about men never doing a night feed, 'babysitting' their own children, walking out the door leaving a vomiting wife to deal with toddlers/babies, expecting to carry on hobbies while their wife has no time to herself etc etc.

Childcare is an issue for parents. Not women.

Well maybe that needs to be addressed. I know there are two schools of thought about pooling money in a relationship. I don't pool everything. But maybe alongside mortgage etc there needs to be an explicit account for children to cover drop in income for the one on ml and then when working is sorted to pool again for childcare. But I feel like it's a conversation for before kids are there

You are unusual in your group of friends that the bulk of them the woman earn more than men. Friends in couples from uni, previous work, DH's old rugby clubs, NCT groups, baby classes when I was on mat leave with DC1 etc, I only know 2 where the woman earns more. Even the most successful woman seem to have picked more successful and ambitious men.

The 2 I know who earn more, both are married to men working in the public services who are in roles where they are 'doing good' and it's more of a vocation.

I think the stats back up that my experience is much more normal, that woman tend to marry 'up' and that in most couples, the man is the greater earner. (this might also be linked to woman being more likely to date/marry a man who is older, if only 2-3 years older, by late 20s those 2-3 years can cover a large pay gaps even if your career paths are very similar)

I am the opposite my female friends are the high earners on the whole which is perhaps why they see childcare as their responsibility

Men already have the right to request a change in hours. They just don't.

coffee - I see what you said on mumsnet a lot, but don't follow it to be honest. Yes, we have a pool of money. But if I work, we need childcare - and the cost of childcare isn't covered by what i earn. If I don't work, we don't need childcare. The effect on the household income is less money overall if I am working.

I happen to earn less than DH - but it applies to the lowest earner's job whoever they are (which statistically is most likely to be the female)

I work in a male heavy area. In one office all sahm plus dad pulling crazy hours. In current job all the guys come in at ten two or three days a week to drop kids at school. It's just known and accepted so I think it is the culture of the office rather than men. At my first office it was a brave soul with no ambition who requested flex time. Current job the pa up to directors do it.

This marrying up by PP is interesting but I disagree. In many surveys on professional careers the number and status of men and women are usually equal with women outnumbering men in certain professions. However as progression happens the number of women in senior ranks reduce often due to women leaving work or reducing hours for childcare reasons. in those cases you can see why expectations that women look after children impacts on their earnings rather than a deliberate attempt to marry 'up'

It's not so much the money as the responsibility Doing. If someone wants to be a SAHP, well and good, problem solved. But if both want to work then both need to make adjustments to make that work.