to think that "middle class" has become a derogatory term

[hijk]

and actually, most people aren't actually part of any class, really, they are just individuals who make their own way in the world.

Ah !

I use MC as a descriptive term. Not as a pejorative one.

(Try doing that with other words)

well, "black" springs to mind, as do any other words associated with skin colour, or ethnic origin. No amount of pointing out it's descriptive will save you from the hounds of PC hell ...

But the middle classes are also riddled with class division:

Lower middle class
Middle class
Lower upper middle class
Upper middle class
Almost Aristocracy, landed but untitled
Them lot.

Hakluyt, I think you're judging class by modern standards there. They're all decent working class jobs. Back when there were real semi-skilled jobs, working class meant exactly that. Nowadays, it seems to be a polite way of saying underclass, which is effectively what we have instead.

Nobody in the first half of the twentieth century would have thought a tailor (other than Saville Row), a foundry foreman, or an refugee 'academic' anything other than working class.

Your use of 'aspirational' is the crux, I suppose. Modern prejudices seem to assume/imply that the modern underclass aren't aspirational which is, obviously, grossly unfair.

I don't think owning your own business, however small has ever been considered working class. And he wasn't a foreman- he was managerial, which means white collar (although I did let you have Currie!).

Yup my Dad used to say of your alarm went off and you went off to work you were working class .

He was joking but there was truth in it. You either own the means of production or you don't. Trying to separate yourself from the main group of workers by 'having a house full of books' is all pretty funny really.

I'm from a very working class background, but despite now living a middle class lifestyle, (with DCs in grammar school) I would never ever identify as middle class and the older I get the prouder I become of my Northern WC roots.

The MC food/ sayings threads always piss me off as there is an inference that WC people couldn't possibly like or eat hummus, olives, goats testicles, it's like an insincere way of saying that I'm better because I'm MC, if that makes sense.

Hakluyt, skilled manual (C2) and supervisory (C2, possibly C1, depending on responsibilities). I'm having both of them!

But I'm not letting you have Portillo- his father was a translator and editor in the news media, then, Chief of the London Office of the Spanish Republican Government in Exile. And a published poet.

Lurking - Ed Miliband is older than me, and his father was Ralph Miliband. Of course he knows what Clause IV was. FFS.

Quite right, wordfactory; either you own capital, or you sell your labour! Ergo, we are (almost) all proletarian!

Workers unite, you have nothing to lose etc etc!

Value sandwich ham = not middle class
Deli counter sliced ham = slightly middle class
Organic rare-breed sliced ham = quite middle class
Jamon Iberico de bellota = ludicrously middle class
Pig slaughtered up at the farm, salted then hung for a month (so ready in time for Sally's wedding = upper class

The MC food/ sayings threads always piss me off as there is an inference that WC people couldn't possibly like or eat hummus, olives, goats testicles

I think I am middle class but now I am older (and less easily impressed) I like plain british food, though it's very hard to come by. Stews, mashed tatties, soup that doesn't contain sweet potato, pumpkin or curry powder.

surely Jemima or Clarissa would be a better name choice for uc than Sally

Hak:

"The media and politics are full of 60s grammar school kids from working class backgrounds. " Name me some. This is one of the great myths of our time.

Off the top of my head - Dianne Abbot. Sting. Paul McCartney. Paul McGann (and his brothers). Julie Walters. That's without even thinking.

MrsdeVere

or is that Audrey .

Preaching to the choir here ... I appreciate a word can be used in a descriptive sense rather than pejorative. But as Mr. Cumberbatch found out, what we think butters no parsnips.

I'll give you 3 out of 4, Gently. Although it is interesting that the 3 all came from families with skilled trades- welders and so on........

Which one aren't you giving me? They were all born working class. Unless you are claiming Dianne Abbot wasn't? And there are at least 4 McGann brothers (although I suppose the other 3 aren't 'at the top of the media' due to that whole not being Dr Who ever thing).

Your attempt to claim that working class people with skills are therefore not working class is a bit disingenuous - it's a sort of reverse Cumberbatch 'I'm middle class' because he doesn't have a title sort of thing. The population is not divided into people with titles, underclass, and everyone else middle class.

Here is my middle class checklist, factual not judgmental, though possibly a load of bollocks. You're middle class if at least 7 of the following apply to you:

1. University graduate
2. Professional, managerial or high grade administrative job
3. Homeowner, unless you're going through a rough patch financially
4. Go to the theatre/art galleries/museums a few times a year
5. Think books are important and read to children every day
6. Think food is important and use exotic/unusual ingredients in cooking
7. On television, tend to watch serious dramas and factual programmes rather than soaps or reality shows
8. Holidays tend to be to areas of natural beauty or cities, often self-catering, rather than beach packages
9. Children's names are usually solid and traditional, classical or whimsical rather than newer or made up names

10. Extended family tends to be less close knit than for either working class or upper class families and friends can assume a greater importance.

Schooling is not included as a measure as both state and private schools are chosen. Style is also a red herring as there's the "Terence Conran school" of obsessing over design and looking like the pages of a Sunday supplement, and there's also the "Jilly Cooper school" of mismatched socks, muddy Labradors and lots of clutter. Obviously a lot of the above 10 points also apply to working class and upper class people, but it's looking at the totality.

ok
1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.
yay! hurrah!

workhorse

interesting list. Vaguely reminds me of a book about evolutionary biology where the author used the fact that an animal ate ants to work backwards to describe an anteater. However he then pointed out that birds, lizards and bears all eat ants - and look nothing like each other.

Middle class has more to do with cultural upbringing than wealth or level of education. You can be working class and very wealthy, or upper-class and poor. Middle class has 3 levels (lower middle, middle-middle, upper-middle).
Regardless of wealth or education, class is still identified primarily by the language you use, your accent, your attitudes, hobbies, how you dress, how you design the interior of your home etc.

Some examples:
Do you say dinner (middle-class) or tea?
Pudding (middle-class) or dessert?
Sofa (middle-class) or settee?
Loo (middle-class) or toilet?

There's a fascinating book about social class in UK, called Watching the English (by an anthropologist, I forget her name)

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0340818867/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/280-8042021-1409650