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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To find it odd caffcass want to speak with 3yr old alone?

75 replies

AJNH · 14/02/2015 00:53

Mainly posting here for traffic, but feel free to tell me I'm being unreasonable (hides!!!)

Ok, so going through courts with 3yr old dd (4 in April) because her absent father has now decided he'd like to be involved. To cut a long story short mine and ExPs relationship was awful and DV took place on his part, as did heavy alcohol consumption and drug use. He was later sectioned after a case of battery (not to me) took place under the mental health act. I couldn't cope and he made my life HELL! So new DP, DD and I moved away.

First hearing has taken place, all went in my favour, spoke to my caffcass reporter today who made an appointment for me to take dd into their office, upon that she told me that she would be taking dd off separately to speak to her and that she would be bringing biological father up with her then. Now Dd has no memory of bio dad, no real understanding(tender age of 3!) and calls my dp daddy (he has brought her up with me from 8months old so understandable). We also have a DC together btw and the 4 of us super close.

So at her age and the fact she simply will not understand I don't really understand myself the reasoning for this 'secret' disscussion. dd is also shy with strangers so I doubt she'll say much anyone.

Ahhhhh, sorry it's so late, I can't sleep, my minds just going over a million things and worrying about poor dd

OP posts:

rumbleinthrjungle · 14/02/2015 12:24

As Dancepony says, speaking to children alone is about making sure they're not saying what they think the parent in the room wants to hear.

It's not a nice situation for you, I would feel the same way as you're looking at an unsettling and possibly risky situation and thinking of your daughter's feelings and not wanting this contact, and how it will affect her if he gets bored again. The court will be looking objectively though and you may need to be prepared that currently in many such cases the court is strongly biased towards children having contact with a parent if at all possible, and may very well see contact as more important than unsettling dd by the process.

Have you had legal advice and support?

FarelyKnuts · 14/02/2015 12:24

*reason not rain

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 12:27

is about making sure they're not saying what they think the parent in the room wants to hear

so they then say what they think the adult in the room wants to hear?

and may very well see contact as more important than unsettling dd by the process.

travesty not to put the child first.

rumbleinthrjungle · 14/02/2015 12:29

Just to add, I've seen SW use toys and play to get an idea of young children's feelings without the child ever being aware of the deeper levels going on. Children's feelings have to be represented in any matter that affects them whatever their age, and for very little ones it may simply be to be able to represent that she communicates through play that she is happy at home and has a good relationship with everyone living there.

FarelyKnuts · 14/02/2015 12:31

Knitted you seem quite paranoid about this?
Do you think caffcass officers receive no training on how to question children without using leading questions etc? Or that this one has an agenda of some kind?

rumbleinthrjungle · 14/02/2015 12:31

Knitted I could get very passionate about the potential rights and wrongs of it and I agree with you, but the OP may need to be aware that may be the priority of the court who will can represent this as being in the longer term interest of the child.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 12:38

Or that this one has an agenda of some kind?

you may need to be prepared that currently in many such cases the court is strongly biased towards children having contact with a parent if at all possible, and may very well see contact as more important than unsettling dd by the process

Well if Rumble is right ^ then the court does have an over all agenda doesn't it.

No I have little faith in questioning techniques and so on and little faith a 3 year old needs to be questioned and asked questions on this.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 12:40

op I have no idea what goes on in these circs but wondering if such a parent would be allowed to contact child if adopted, with both new parents?

Can your dp adopt your daughter? would ex be allowed contact?

PeruvianFoodLover · 14/02/2015 12:43

travesty not to put the child first.

Courts have to weigh up the inevitable conflict between the short term advantages to the child of avoiding contact with a less-then-perfect parent against the long-term disadvantages of excluding a parent from the DCs life. Court judgements are made taking into account the findings of research that states that outcomes for DCs are better when they have two parental figures.

maybe what's best for DCs in this situation is for courts to award/transfer PR to the stepparent, and order them to take on the role of second parent. Then the child will be statistically more likely to have better outcomes, but will have the ineffective parent removed from their lives.

Viviennemary · 14/02/2015 12:45

I think it's a very dodgy policy asking to speak to a three year old alone. And agree that they will say whatever they think the adult in the room wants them to say or else get very confused. I think I would agree with you not allowing this. Could you not get some legal advice. Who do these busybodies think they are deciding they know what's best. They often don't. Not surprised you're annoyed.

Quitelikely · 14/02/2015 12:47

Do not listen to people who are telling you to refuse the cafcas requests.

They hold A LOT of sway with regards to what happens from hereon in and their report is seen by the judge, after all he isn't going to pop out himself and assess the situation!

PeruvianFoodLover · 14/02/2015 12:52

Who do these busybodies think they are deciding they know what's best.

They are trained professionals who have been ordered by the family court to gather information in order to inform the judge/magistrate who decides what is best for a DC in situations where the parents do not agree.

If the OP refuses, then CAFCASS are unable to fulfil the order issued to them by the court. And that is what they will report back.

Right or wrong, the court has the final say, here.

FarelyKnuts · 14/02/2015 12:58

OP, please don't misunderstand me, I have every sympathy for you wanting to keep your child away from your abusive ex and for not wanting her upset.
But I urge you, do not pay attention to people telling you to refuse to comply with caffcass requests.
You may know that you are good decent people who have only your child's best interest at heart and that your ex does not. A judge does not.
He relies on reports from people who have talked with and assessed all of you to ascertain this.

Viviennemary · 14/02/2015 13:07

Relying on reports from people who don't even know the child. I think this is really inappropriate for a three year old. I think the OP should seek advice as to what her legal rights are. The thought of surrending your child to a stranger 200 miles away is not one most Mothers would be happy about especially in view of the DV.

PeruvianFoodLover · 14/02/2015 13:13

Relying on reports from people who don't even know the child.

Yes, that's the law. Overturning it in court is almost certainly beyond the financial scope of the OP.
Courts take a very hard line with people who disagree with the system.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 13:14

It seems odd if parents are not allowed to contact children given up for adoption but like in this situ, girl has a dad, since 8 months old, and yet ex parent can come in and cause havoc?

PeruvianFoodLover · 14/02/2015 13:19

Knitted - having thought about it since I posted it, the risk is that DCs could have a series of legally appointed 'dads' through their childhood.
How could it be managed?

There's no guarantee that the OP and her DP won't split - then what?

WrappedInABlankie · 14/02/2015 13:19

I don't get what she's expecting. Her to say

I have a DP whose been with me for 2 years met DS when he was 1 (he's nearly 3) he's never known another 'father' I've never mentioned it to DS because quite frankly he wouldn't understand. What 3 year old would understand you have a father and a biological father?

If she tried to talk to my DS she wouldn't get far tbh

rumbleinthrjungle · 14/02/2015 13:20

OP please get yourself proper legal advice asap, you are getting some well meant but very dodgy advice here which could potentially put you in a much weaker position in court and cause you a lot of trouble down the line.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 13:23

the risk is that DCs could have a series of legally appointed 'dads' through their childhood.
How could it be managed?

very true but they have another child together, this dad has been with her since 8 months.

Do adoptive parents divorce? if this man legally adopted her I was musing as to whether this ex would be given a look in....

rumbleinthrjungle · 14/02/2015 13:23

When a child is given or removed for adoption a court legally terminates parental responsibility which is why contact is ended.

Separated parents still both have parental responsibility and courts do not lightly remove or terminate this.

TendonQueen · 14/02/2015 13:24

Sadly it probably is best to comply but I agree with Gatorade. The evidence that two parental figures means a better outcome for the child that Peruvian mentioned - this child has two parental figures who are committed to her. It's a shame that biological origin, which means tap all when people decide they want to walk away, is going to given priority above that. Not in the child's best interests IMO.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 14/02/2015 13:28

so rumble, if ops dp legally adopted 3 year old, would ex be given look in?

bonnymiffy · 14/02/2015 13:33

Hi there, we had a Cafcass involvement when DH's ex tried to move herself and DSS away without telling DH. DSS was 8 at the time, Cafcass officer spoke to him on his own in order to write a Wishes and Feelings report, and to gauge his understanding of the situation. Obviously your DD is a lot younger than that, but they are trained to work out what she's thinking and as far as is reasonable they will take into consideration. You say you only went to the Police a couple of times but there will be records of that, and it sounds like the courts are taking the drugs testing and MH issues very seriously. I'm no expert, but if the court does insist on contact with him I think you could equally forcefully insist it is supervised.
I realise that anyone saying not to worry too much will be wasting their time, but if you're worried, write your concerns down so that you can ask the Cafcass officer/solicitor/ any one else everything when you see them next. Sounds to me like your DD is a happy secure little girl who has a lot of love around her.

Postchildrenpregranny · 14/02/2015 13:38

I'd be surprised if a nearly four year old understood the difference between a biological father and her Daddy.I think you probably should /would have told her, but when she was of an age to understand . As in, when you have the discussion about how babies are made..

While I appreciate the Courts have to obey the law, in my view parenting has little to do with biologically fathering (or in indeed carrying) a child and everything to do with raising them.

Should they agree access I think (hope) I'm right in saying that initially at least it would be supervised-i.e. on neutral ground, with a social worker 'in attendance'. I'd be very surprised if they'd let a 4 year old visit (200 miles from home)with an adult she didn't know, especially one with previous 'issues' even if currently he's on the right track

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