By an Elderly German saying Dresden was a war crime.

[Rjae]

He said, yes, Germany started the war but the bombing of Dresden was a war crime.

AIBU to be outraged by this.

Exterminating Jews, gipsies, and prisoners of war was a war crime.
Invading half a dozen European countries and murdering it's citizens was a war crime.
Bombing Londoners and other british cities long before Dresden was a war crime
Starting the fucking war was a war crime.

Dresden was horrific of course, but not a war crime, unless you consider everything a war crime. It shouldn't have happened, but neither should the war. I'm sorry so many people were killed and a beautiful city destroyed. They were civilians but they supported Hitler wholeheartedly.

No doubt it didn't do much except kill civilians in the long wrong, but that still doesn't make it a war crime.

Or do you support right wing neo nazis?

No Rjae, I don't support right wing neo nazis. That is an incredibly offensive comment to make.

I apologise.

But you must see that they are hijacking this 'war crime' thing for their own ends.

I do Rjae, i really do.

I just don't think that can be used to shut down debate or self examination though.

It hasn't shut down debate but it's one of the reasons it's getting so much coverage. It was discussed at length earlier.

Presumably everyone who is feeling sorry for the refugees fleeing the Soviet armies is aware of the fact that about 3 million Polish people were forcibly removed from their homes and farms to make way for about 1 million Germans gathered from all over Europe and sent to live in those houses and farm the farms. The new arrivals frequently found unmade beds and half eaten meals waiting for them, cows waiting to be milked, pets waiting to be fed. The Poles were allowed to take 15kg of personal possessions each.

Aside from that influx of Germans, the Volksdeutsch already living in East and West Prussia, Pomerania, Galicia, Memel, Posen, Brandenburg, Saxony and Silesia participated every bit as much as Germans in the west in the use of slave labourers on farms and in factories, most of which were drawn into the war industry/concentration camp apparatus, with results for the slaves that did not mirror the experience of Oskar Schindler's slave labour force.

Princess last night Sabrinawhatshername topped that level of offensiveness by challenging me (or 'questioning me', which is apparently different ) on 'what I'd do when the Nazis knocked'. Possibly the most offensive thing I've ever read on MN, since I'd only just said my great uncle was arrested for resistance activities (by the Nazis, obviously) and died on a death march (in circumstances one can imagine, and after being in a concentration camp, obviously). And yet these same people are hand wringing about the camps, and deploying their awfulness to somehow justify Dresden. The lack of emotional intelligence on that one is just incredible. No doubt my deploring Dresden makes me a Neo Nazi too, though it hasn't yet been said.

I'm not decided whether the complacency or stupidity on this thread is worst. Both are extremely prominent.

More neo nazi propaganda, for those who think they are not being made tools/fools of.

I think it is offensive to suggest that anyone criticising the bombing of Dresden is supporting the far right - but it is also worth noting that far-right does use Dresden, and spread myths about it, to fit their agenda. Holocaust denial and Neonazism do exist, and in some areas of Europe are on the rise. The misinformation spread about Dresden (for instance, that of hijk on this thread) is fuel for them to try and draw an equivalence between the Nazis and the Allies - make out they were as bad as each other.

I also don't agree that Dresden was disproportionate in the context of the war. Tragic loss of life- yes, worthy of commemoration -certainly. But it was in fact, the same tactic used by both sides innumerable times during the war. It was a legitimate target for the allies, however, it seems, when compared to the London bltiz of March 10 1940 - that a mixture of luck and the preparedness of London had a part to play. The German attacks on London were thwarted from become an all-out firestorm by our firemen on every street fighting the blaze, emergency services at the ready (because London had been suffering similar attacks for months). London also had an amazing piece of luck that night - the Germans were prevented from planned repeat waves of attacks that night/the next day, by bad weather. Otherwise, the firestorm and casualties would be far worse.

At the time Dresden was planned, London was under near constant threat and attck by V1/V2 rockets - which hit civilian targets -whether by accident or design - they were aimed at British cities containing civilians. It's war - and it's why I'm against war. But then comes that question again - what to do when the Nazis come knocking at your door? Which they were.

And before molio explodes and gets her posts deleted again, I think it's a perfectly valid question. It was the one that all the allies had to ponder when faced with Hitler's expansionism and invasions across Europe.

mathanxiety - trivial this - my great aunt asked if she could take her car along with the 15kg, was told no, so put it into gear and let it go forward into a lake, submerging and wrecking the car. The Russian officer was ok with it though. He said he understood. There is humanity within all this which is something we need to remember. Lots of inhumanity, but humanity too.

It has been a long term debate. To judge it without the experiences of those times is less than successful. It was towards the end of a long, hard war and bad decisions were made by Churchill as were ones that ensured our survival. However, if you had lost family and homes while experiencing night after night of air raids, shortages etc perhaps the judgement may have been less sympathetic. Remember, also our brave airmen, youngsters going out into that dark unknown with little likelihood of returning. They were following orders on our behalf in order that this island was secure but they died in their hundreds on that terrible mission. War is obscene and so was what happened to Dresden.

My posts were deleted? Goodness! I didn't read back. They were deleted because you asked me such a completely astonishing question, given the circumstances? Amazing. Did you ask for that because I observed they were offensive, and indicated why? I was remarkably measured, though upset. Is it against the guidelines to point out that that was offensive? Perhaps you were embarrassed, I don't know, but I think you should have thought before you asked me the question, that's for absolutely sure. No apology though, I note - would that not have been better?

I've been called a moron and incapable of understanding war and heartless and inhumane and saying civilians deserved to die. None of it is true, so a gentle question asking if someone is aware that the coverage of Dresden is being used to fuel right wing neo nazism is a valid question.

It is also I agree a fair question to ask that if Churchill hadn't been as ruthless as he was we would most certainly have been speaking German. My 6 yr old son would also be dead as he is disabled. Jews wouldn't exist in Europe and we wouldn't have any worries about our country being taken over by ferinnurs. Hitler wanted to drive down the Mall in triumph and had the plans ready.

I will always believe the vast majority of people are decent but it only takes one charismatic madman to bring the world to its knees. If we have to do bad things to stop them then the regret and sorrow is a price I think we have to pay.

I won't apologise for a question posed another poster, no - I think it's a good question. It's a good question because it teases out difficult concepts for those (like me) who are against war - but if you're against war - what to do in the face of Hitler's actions? Do you, like France open your doors to occupation, and atrocities against your population - or do you fight, like Churchill?

Your post was deleted because it was nothing but a personal attack.

Malta 1940. 154 days and nights. 6700 tons of bombs.

www.visitmalta.com/en/world-war-2

Ok I see now that one post of many was deleted but I don't recall what it said. I do know that at no point did I 'explode', since I don't ever (on MN, and rarely in RL). I must have said something critical of you because of your comments, though goodness knows what. It couldn't have been intemperate anyhow. No-one from a family where there's been a significant toll would be likely to be intemperate I don't think. The general feeling is sadness, not anger - or perhaps I'm generalising again. I don't think insincere apologies are worth anything Sabrina but the lack of one speaks volumes. Perhaps you should take a look at what you've written again, and consider how decent it is. I see that OP apologised instantly to Princess, which is good - all credit.

*by another poster.

Hitler did indeed have plans for Britain. The London blitz was intended to bomb us into submission (soften us up prior to a German invasion) and to destroy our RAF to stop counter bombing to Germany.

The London Blitz failed (apart from the huge loss of life and homes) in that it neither destroyed the British morale or our Air Force. Hitler then set his sights on Russia. In a nutshell, so to speak.

Years later, the war still raged. The allies had to win against Hitler, surely people see that.

The question about the Nazis coming calling was one I initially posed to another poster who said something along the lines of, If X is an appalling thing to do, Country B can't claim it was justified in doing it because Country A did it first.'

So I made the point that this effectively denies a country self-defence: if Country A had invaded Country B, killing soldiers and civilians (which is appalling) and Country B then bombed the rail hub/port from which the attack was launched, killing soldiers and civilians (appalling), does Country B then have no justification for its actions? And I then said, if this is the case, what do you do when the Nazis come calling, meaning, what do you do when they attack you (as a country)? I thought that was clear from the context and I'm sorry if it wasn't.

But the question stands. No one has attempted to answer it. It's not directly germane to whether Dresden was a war crime or not, but does get you thinking about retaliation, self defence, self protection. War is horrible. Launching high explosives at flesh and blood is horrible. Britain was forced into a corner by Hitler: it was less than 21 years since the end of WWI, and nobody much had the appetite for another war: all the middle-aged people of 35+ could remember it (people here of 35+: how long ago does 21 years feel to you?)

Sabrina I think the point is maybe think a bit before asking that question of someone whose family member you were aware had exactly that knock on the door and died as a direct result, horribly. I mean, I can't really help you out much more....

Molio it wasn't personal towards your family member - it was a very general question about the war, as has been explained. I'm aware of the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the populations it invaded/occupied. That's what the Allies were fighting against after all - the Nazis.

Also "come knocking at your door" was a turn of phrase, used by another poster - and shouldn't be taken literally.

MehsMum obviously there's no issue with your question, it's entirely fair, and I understand the reason for asking it in the context of the thread. It's different with Sabrina directly recycling the question to me though, immediately after I'd said what I said. That seemed pretty awful, just to score some point, so I said so. Very different from you - you've no need at all to apologise.

And again, I wasn't asking about your family member:

Also "come knocking at your door" was a turn of phrase, used by another poster - and shouldn't be taken literally.

I have every respect for the humanity of people who are so horrified by Dresden they call it a war crime. No one can be unmoved by it and to identify with the men, women and children who died a terrible death.

What I don't respect is their blinkered inability to see the bigger picture. To look at the stresses and forces involved in fighting a war machine of incredible power who even at the end had rockets ready to launch on Britain. I can't understand how you can weigh up the suffering of one group of people against another and call it a war crime. The majority of German officers and nazis who ordered atrocities walked away scott free. Some were even recruited into the American rocket program. None of those were tried as a criminal and many of their crimes went unreported. Yet you are trying to retrospectively criminalise the people responsible for giving us the freedom we enjoy today.

I just don't get it.

Probably best on a thread capable of sparking emotion just to put your hands up Sabrina. I would. Anyhow, you won't, so just let it go.