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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be confused about the treatment of females culturally and historically

45 replies

wotoodoo · 10/02/2015 10:23

This has been bugging me more than ever before so please bear with me as I need to get it off my chest.

We are hearing on the news about the routine rounding up/enslavement and raping of vunerable women and girls, if it's not by Boko Haram or Isis, it's in Rotherham and Oxford and throughout history, ancient and recent.

Both the Koran and the Bible put the female in complete subservience to the male, and the horrific treatment of females probably predates religion doctrine, which some could argue, actually improved the female lot.

Many women and girls who are pregnant, regardless of religious or cultural reasons/restrictions are for the most part going to be hellbent on wanting the best for their children and families as the driving force of their lives.

So why would religious doctrines and family/cultural pressure not be more supportive of women/girls who are suffering due to sadist /psychotic/violent/abusive husbands/partners/masters? Is it only in the West where there is (limited ) support?

I am thinking of the recent case of the Kuwaiti wife found with a screwdriver in her eye having been brutally tortured by her dh for years and her neighbours having heard it all before, presumably not reporting it. The routine horrific treatment of Afghan women, Yazidi women... the list goes on.

Historically Christians enslaved and brutalised women also. Women in 'faithless' societies like the Uk are not immune to poor treatment either.

My question to women in general therefore and particularly to women with strong religious/cultural beliefs is how can you reconcile your faith with the reality of poor treatment of females in your religion/culture?

OP posts:
editthis · 10/02/2015 12:24

Very interesting question, OP.

Speaking as an agnostic, but raised in a Christian household and society, I often think that non-believers (such as myself) find the concept of faith hard to understand, because we simply do not have it. As I understand it, you can have faith in God and values your faith upholds, without believing in the Bible (produced by fallible people, not representative necessarily of the ideal).

So although yes, Religion (organised religion) is merely a tool to keep people in line and oppressed, that's not what OP is asking; faith is not a choice, and it might sometimes be hard to reconcile your faith with your religion, if that makes any sense...

simonettavespucci · 10/02/2015 12:46

I was coming on here to say the same thing about the shift to agriculture, and with it the rise of territorial warfare, being the root of gender evil - and also of epidemic disease, though that's not relevant here.

As regards women enforcing misogynistic norms - however intelligent you are your cultural environment to a large extent restricts what you can think. If you live in a world where all of the texts and images (overwhelmingly created by men) are telling you women are inferior you are very unlikely to suddenly have the idea that women are equal. I think it's hard to really conceptualise just how radical & recent the idea of gender equality is.

Also, even if it did occur to you that e.g. FGM is bad you are in a double-bind, because if you don't make your daughters conform to the social norms there is a high chance they will be rejected by your society, which may have even worse effects on their life than FGM (hard though that is to imagine). I remember reading about this dilemma in Wild Swans, I think? Parents coming to the conclusion that foot binding was cruel, but being worried that if they didn't bind their daughters' feet she'd never find a husband. People will go through a hell of a lot to get social acceptance and, from a survival point of view, with good reason.

simonettavespucci · 10/02/2015 12:48

*daughter's not daughters' - apostrophe disaster!

ErrolTheDragon · 10/02/2015 13:25

If you live in a world where all of the texts and images (overwhelmingly created by men) are telling you women are inferior you are very unlikely to suddenly have the idea that women are equal

That's reminded me I really ought to finish reading Delusions of Gender.

Yes - to go back to Thurlow's post, living in a society where your holy book blames women for the Fall and all subsequent evil isn't going to do your idea of self-worth a lot of good.

Thurlow · 10/02/2015 14:01

You do have to put almost every discussion of why women are treated in the way they are into its proper societal context. As PP say, fighting current societal practice is an enormous thing to undertake. In modern Britain, for example, it might seem easier; that's certainly not the case everywhere. As simone says, you are very unlikely to suddenly have the idea that women are equal.

I also agree that the effect of society on religion is probably stronger than the effect of religion in society, in many cases.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 14:15

I mull over this kind of thing a lot as a feminist.

I think religion is a red herring as others have said - or maybe it's only one of several processes that reinforce patriarchy, and even as it does it's entwined with many others.

I think a lot of the problem is about, in a nutshell, desire (for anything - status, things, sex, food, power, relief from work whatever) and the fact that we all want things and can't always have them. Originally, the fact that women are generally weaker and tied up with things like pregnancy & breastfeeding put them in a weaker position. Men could take what they wanted and women be left with the rest. (Obviously this a massive oversimplification, to an extent a society cares for its members so women wouldn't not get fed etc. but they would be less important and come second in having their desires met.

Then what happens is this gets reinforced and passed on culturally, so you end up with ideas about what women should be like, religious teachings about how they should behave, and limitations on what they should expect, being enshrined in social mores and culture. Then that gets reflected in things like not getting the vote, not being allowed to drive, getting less pay etc etc.

And, it gets repeated in a micro level in individual relationships so you get countless households / accounts on here where the man just helps himself to both lie-ins at the weekend, or time away with his mates whenever he fancies, won't do housework "wifework", expects sex and sulks if refused, or to further extremes, bullies and controls his female partner. That set-up reflects the deep-seated, maybe not always conscious opinions of what women and men deserve that are inculcated in us all, even in the "freer" west.

What's important is that both women and men absorb and pass on this message all the time and that is why feminism isn't for me about "women against men", it's about generally being against the inequality and the unthinking biases that people have.

bettyboop1970 · 10/02/2015 14:22

We live in a patriarchal society, therefore women will never be truly equal.
Religion is particularly oppressive for women.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 14:31

Various things are used to keep women in line, besides violence, and in modern western societies they can be quite subtle so that even intelligent women can think of themselves as free and equal.

They include things like disapproval from the church/god if you don't behave "modestly" or in a proscribed way sexually, disapproval from society if you are ballbreaking/uppity/rebellious (even things like not changing your name on marriage can bring problems for you, the woman that did it, in terms of how you are treated re your bank account, passport, even my son's HT treats me as a bit odd), and the threat of not being liked/liked by the opposite sex/being able to find a husband and have children.

A woman who is perpetuating that message may not even realise what she's doing. She's just genuinely worried that if her daughter for example gets a short haircut, she won't attract a man, so she puts pressure on her "for her own good" to fit an expected mould. My own mum did this for example and tried to pressure me into copying a schoolfriend's more girly hair.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 14:34

I also think men suffer greatly from this too, if and when they want to step outside what's expected. One example is the trouble men have with talking about mental health and the resultant high suicide rate in young men.

wotoodoo · 10/02/2015 14:44

Why were women given a brain?!

If women really were brainless and only able to grunt and do menial chores it would make the gender bias sensible.

A consultant I once had was a lovely, highly educated and intelligent Indian woman and she was unmarried and childless because she knew she would not be able to follow the norms of her family/ society/caste and be as respected as a wife in India as she was working as a consultant endocrinologist in the UK.

So how many other highly educated and intelligent women remain childless and/or unmarried or have power struggles within their relationships because there are too few men who are culturally able to cope?

OP posts:
worksallhours · 10/02/2015 14:44

This is tricky subject, op, because, culturally and historically, the way women have been treated in a culture, religion or region has changed over time, and women have, even then, been treated differently within a particular context according to economic or social status. We also have to step away from our modern perspectives, and view how religion and culture impacts and has impacted upon different types of women and what is/was seen as more beneficial.

For example, early Christianity was a boon to women from wealthy Roman families because the early concepts of the religion freed them from the rigid paterfamilias system. When it comes to the medieval period, convents allowed women to escape arranged marriages; many also provided an atmosphere where women could read, learn and write. So there have been periods in history where Christianity has meant emancipation and freedom for women. In short, it has been a refuge from patriarchy.

Again, Christianity is also a religion with a highly female divine element. Christianity in Italy and a lot of South America is basically Marianism (the Cult of the Virgin Mary). Jesus and God are pretty much shoved to one side in favour of the Divine Mother, which, of course, is problematic in one sense (godly women = mothers; bad women = whores), but also beneficial in another (the mother must be adored for she is nearest God). In the latter sense, the Virgin Mary has been a very powerful icon for women who are mothers (which, in history, would have been the majority of women over the age of 18); she can be invoked in a political, social and cultural sense to allow women to gain some traction within a patriarchal structure.

Again, I think it is important to recognise that no social structure can continually abuse or repress women at an exceptionally high level for long, and, because of this, few societies have done so. ISIS and Talibanesque attitudes to women within society cannot and do not last for one simple reason: such practices eradicate the population.

Take Afghanistan under the Taliban. Judging by what was already occurring, I suspect the society would not have lasted very long at all, maybe one or two generations. The chronic repression of women through strict purdah led to extraordinarily high rates of rickets in babies and children and other associated developmental and health problems through maternal and infant malnutrition and deficiency. But more importantly, mandatory burqas not only meant that mental health problems amongst Afghani women were through the roof, but the women were suffering from such extraordinary osteoporosis, their hips and pelvises were shattering during childbirth.

Now if birth complications like that become commonplace in your society, you've just had it. You can't replace your population effectively, so your country just dies. Likewise, if a majority of women in your society have developed acute mental health disorders, they cannot look after their infants and children properly so infant mortality goes through the roof etc -- and your country just dies.

And, of course, women have just not been consistently treated in that way throughout Islamic history -- otherwise, there would simply be no Muslims left. What is interesting though is that Islamic structures within particular eras have allowed certain women to become extraordinarily powerful. Kosem Sultan was probably the most politically powerful person in the world in the 17th century, and she started off as a slave.

Again, cultural practices that modern western women may view as repressive actually give Muslim women from certain cultures quite an extraordinary level of power within their context. In traditional Turkic culture, a woman's domain is "the home", the domestic sphere, whereas the man's is "public space", the civic sphere.

Now this sound very patriarchal and horrendous, until you realise that "the home" is not defined by the walls of the house. It can often be the entire neighbourhood or, indeed, everything that is not the civic sphere, and the civic sphere is ahem the local coffee shop -- and that is it. Grin And because "the home" is women's space, women have the authority to chuck out their husbands without argument. So if you go to them and say "you are being repressed", they will say "how?"

So the issue really isn't simple and requires a hellova lot of unpicking.

Again, and this is a bit controversial, I am pretty convinced FGM is a fairly modern practice; in my gut, I would say it originates from, at the very earliest, the 19th century. I just cannot see that FGM has been practiced for hundreds of years; its impact on fertility, childbirth and health is just too great.

Thurlow · 10/02/2015 14:55

Wotoodoo, are you religious yourself? I'm only asking because of the way you phrase questions like 'why were women given a brain.'

They weren't given a brain. Animals - pretty much all animals, I think (biology is not my strong suit so I'm sure someone can come along with a random example Grin) - evolved into two genders. There's no 'given' there.

I get your story about the consultant you knew, but it's confusing the wider historical discussion with a modern society.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 15:01

Yes it's not that women were given a brain, but that they are lacking something physically compared to men (namely, both strength and freedom, generally speaking) and this has been taken advantage of.

Women have, in fact always used their brains as much as men. It's because they do have brains and are equal to men in that sense that societal mechanisms to keep women in a lower position have evolved; they have been necessary to protect the status quo, which is equal to protecting men's interests. Even then, as civilisation proceeds, those things stop working, and we get feminism.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/02/2015 16:38

works - why go with your gut on FGM when a quick google suggests quite a bit of evidence that it's been going on in various ways for a long time (predating Islam).

Christianity and Islam may both have been relatively egalitarian for their time - the big problem is that when you have 'people of the book, that then the rules get written down and so societies dominated by these religions can get stuck in the past. Within christianity, there's quite a lot of variation - some denominations (eg congregationalists) espoused equality about a hundred years ago, allowing women ministers to be ordained; the CofE has just about dragged itself into the 20th century now (not quite the 21st yet); the catholics are nowhere near, and various fundamentalist sects are entirely opposed to equality (the term 'surrendered wife' speaks volumes, doesn't it?)

ErrolTheDragon · 10/02/2015 16:39

Madder - of course a lot of the inequality stems from what is lacking in men - their ability to bear and nurse children.

TooManyMochas · 10/02/2015 16:45

It's because they do have brains and are equal to men in that sense that societal mechanisms to keep women in a lower position have evolved; they have been necessary to protect the status quo, which is equal to protecting men's interests. Even then, as civilisation proceeds, those things stop working, and we get feminism

[Puts history PhD hat on] I think feminist theory vastly downplays the inherent limitations women historically laboured under. Women are the ones who undergo pregnancy (a major physical limitation before the availability of cheap reliable contraception gave us some measure of control over our fertility), we're the ones who breastfeed (another major restriction before the invention of high quality breast milk substitutes), we're the ones who menstruate (pretty grim before the advent of cheap high quality sanitary protection) and we are on average physically weaker than men. The fact that we're intellectually equal to men mattered much less in cultures where survival was based on hard physical labour or the ability to prevail in hand to hand combat. So gender is very definitely not just a social construct in societies less technologically advanced than ours. Gender equality is based on technological advances rather than moral ones. Even in our society its a distinct financial advantage for a mother to be married or partnered.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 16:50

Yes Mochas I totally agree. So the inherent physical disadvantages created the initial unequal relationship, which has since been perpetuated by societal means.

Of course if you can give birth you have something that men are lacking - but I used "lacking" to identify those areas that - while they may be an extra thing that women have - cause women to lack strength and freedom.

Re brains, the equality in brain power is what causes women to identify that despite the physical "lacking", they have equal importance and should have equal rights and powers - despite the physical inequalities.

MadderPink · 10/02/2015 16:52

But, that's a long slow process whereby women's equal intellect and non-physical abilities, while obvious, are suppressed by the societal systems that maintain the status quo. So, therefore, feminism is a struggle, rather than the simply being a case of pointing out something obvious.

simonettavespucci · 10/02/2015 18:06

Yes Mocha! Totally agree with that - again it's hard to really get your head around the HUGE implications of no reliable contraception and high infant and maternal mortality rates. Although, thinking about it, the origins of modern feminism - e.g. Mary Wollstonecraft etc - seem to predate the kind of technological developments you're mentioning, and, possibly be more ideologically driven - Rights of Man, therefore Rights of Women? What is your take on that [no PhD history hat, though quite nice bonnet]?

simonettavespucci · 10/02/2015 18:07

errol thank you - I must read Delusions of Gender - will order it now

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