To get annoyed at 'summer baby' used at school

[hufflebottom]

That is it.

Last time I looked children developed at their own pace and whether or not they were the youngest in the class wasn't really a factor.

I'm an August baby, I was the youngest in my school when I was in reception. But my reading/ writing was above some of my classmates who were older.

My brother on the other hand, again an August baby (August is an expensive month for us. My parents must have got really bored in the winter) is the complete opposite.

My dd (5) is on par for doing well she's a March baby. My friends kid is a week older and is just below Dd's reading level.

When did the whole children learn at their own pace get taken over by the 'my child is a summer baby so will struggle'

Am prepared for flaming

My twin nephews were 4 on 30th August but weren't due until the October.
Dsil always says this is the reason they struggle at school but there is a little girl in their class born the day after on the 31st and is therefore the youngest in the class, is streets ahead of them all.
In ds's old primary, the brightest in the class was his best friend, born 3rd September and was the oldest so there's no proof to me either way.

Prem babies are always more likely to need extra time to catch up though.

My 4yo is a late summer baby, and he's doing well with reading, writing, maths etc.

Emotionally though there is a gulf between him and his older peers and he struggles to concentrate.

I'm glad there's an awareness of it.

The problem with allowing parents to the option to defer is that you get the situation in scotland where no one wants their child to be youngest. The February and January children are deferred so the December born become the youngest. Some parents are desperate for their child to be top of the class. They will defer their child even if their child could cope.

I feel that the decision to defer should only be made if a consultant paediatrian or an educational pychologist recommends it. I feel the costs of deferement could be ofset by allowing really gifted September/ October born (in England) to start school early.

I am quite sad about this. Ttc Dc1 starting may 2009 i think ivf sept 2011 dc born june. I had originally wanted no later than like jan/feb birthday.
Dc2 ivf jan 2014 failed so no oct baby, ivf oct 2014 success EDD july 2015.
The most important is to have the baby
However, i was august born only 1 term reception. Struggled with english. Was a bit naughty etc.

did fine by secondary but it does follow you that you started off behind.
What seems to make the difference is- boys generally behind anyway so aug boy would be most unlucky.
Emotional maturity
Tiredness
Size- im 5'4 so 50th centile but always 1 of 3 say smallest in yr group
I also was mainly friends with summer borns.
I think less effeect on a DC1 as they already have advantage over dc2s in the yr group because they had more attention etc
Will it make a difference to DD?
Dont know. She is very bright now at 2.5 (speech better than say a 4yo). Behaviour not so much as wont sit still.

More summer borns diagnosed dyslexic and adhd.
Sept/oct born frequently on school sports teams - as theyre bigger, stronger, more confident.
Hoping as DP is 6'1 DC will at least be tall (though currently looking to be only my height :( )
DPs sibling and DN all sumner born and dyslexic. And actually my side uncle and cousins the same.
Maybe you cant sit still /too tired to keep up.
Could a split yr work in primary to if 2 class entry separated into each half year so they are working against only others up to 6m older.
Im glad DD will start in sept rather than say easter, what could be worse than 2/3 of the class knowing teacher and routine, having been taught stuff already plus older by almost a yr.
But it seems like the free nursery hrs do a bit of this as DD gets hrs from sept 3.3 for 9m.
Born oct 2011 would have started their hrs jan 2015 so 6m longer (though of course can work out expensive for parents working)
So overall i'll be more concerned for DC2.
Wonder if this expkains why some kids seem to do well in primary (as they are oldest) but cant cope with the more complicated stuff at secondary and the age gap makes less difference.

Sorry, just skimmed so apologies if this has been said.
While you're right all children develop at their own pace, and some summer borns do better than some Sep/Oct borns, on the whole, yes, summer borns do struggle.
I live near an academy that is one of the top in the country(secondary). I have a good friend who works there, in quite a high position. She does interventions for those who are 'behind', and puts into place the personalised plans for them going forward.
She is also paid to give lectures in other schools in how to implement such strategies (as her school is so successful).
A high percentage of assessments she does with each child is age adjusted.
This means that if a Jan born, and an April born get exactly the same score, the April born is considered to have scored higher because they are younger. I believe they also do something similar with the 11 plus?
So even in secondary schools, age in months is taken into account.
She told me most of those in need of interventions are summer born.
This was after me expressing my concerns to her about my own DS, who is the second youngest in his year, she told me that you do see a difference in her experience, obviously it is less pronounced than in primary but it's still there.
My DS is in year 1, and as I said is second youngest of year group of about 110-120 (4 classes), and it is of great concern to me that he is being assessed against children who can be a whole year older.
At parents evening his teacher said to me it's hard because had he been born a few days later, he would be in Reception now, and his work would be very good for a child in YR, but as it is he is struggling in Y1.
Saying all this, I am a June baby, and mentioned friend is an August baby and we both very much excelled in school, but to say it makes no difference because some children don't struggle, specially when there is so much research to the contrary, is pretty ridiculous!
Sorry for being so long winded, but as you can see this topic actually a real worry for me, so IMO, YABVU

I also agree with poster who said emotional maturity is a big issue too.
I feel like my DS is a very young 5 if you know what I mean, his teacher makes a conscious effort to pair him with one of the older, more mature students when possible.

Can you appeal to hold them back? My pfb was born 7 weeks early on 25 august and is developing quite slowly. He's just scraping the 9th centile for his corrected age. He is from 'big' parents so I think he would be more a 50-75th centile baby if he made it to term.

Anyway, Im expecting him to need time to develop and starting school as a tiny 4 year old seems unhelpful. Is it possible to hold him back?

The problem can also be exacerbated by the fact that if children are grouped by ability in their first years at school, those that are more mature are likely to be put in higher achieving groups, and therefore given more challenging work, with more expected of them.

I dont think that its any coincidence that at my daughters school, even in year 5, the 'top table' is made up mostly of September and October born children.

time2deal this thread on the bliss website messageboard.bliss.org.uk/forums/topic/deferring-and-delaying-school-entry/ will tell you everything you need to know (and a fair bit more!) about delaying school entry for summer-born prems. My DS is doing well in reception, but there's no doubting that he's very very young for his class, both academically and (especially) socially. Some of the boys are over a head taller than him!

foreverton, your sample size of 3 is just perhaps a little small for you to make a judgement on the whole of a cohort of several million children? Anecdote is not evidence, for crying out loud!

I agree with budgiegirl and if you have a good school where there is a lot of swapping the tables it may not be such a problem, but unfortunately it can be the case that they don't and as such the top table will very much stay the top table etc.
I feel I'm very lucky in my DS school, they have been very proactive with him, referring him to a speech therapist and assessing him for dyspraxia in YR, and as such gets a lot of one to one, where a friend who works in a primary school in the next borough told me her school will not consider getting students assessed for these thing until at least Y3 or Y4, as it thought that budget issues because they are still young they might 'grow out of it', when in reality the longer you leave it, the harder it is to address.
Aside from me going off on that tangent, it's easy to see how some schools will be satisfied with the 'status quo' that those on the top table at the start will stay on the top table, and therefore have essentially created a self fulfilling prophecy regarding 'top' and 'bottom' tables etc. as the table they are on this year, will be used next year, as the new teacher will have to group them, and can only do so by going on the previous year.
It seems very 'pot luck' in which schools take into account these thing, which I suppose is the same as anything in education.....

I admit I'm feeling a bit grumpy today but I hate these summer born threads. Why are there so many people who insist that their cousin's neighbour's daughter in law was born at 11:59 on 31st August and went to Oxford, so all this summer born stuff is a load of shit? It has been demonstrated that summer born children, ON AVERAGE, do less well at school than those born in the autumn and it doesn't bloody well matter how many children you personally know who refute this average, it is still true.

My grandad started smoking at 9 and lived to 86 (true story), which just goes to show that smoking is definitely not bad for your health. It just depends on the individual person, doesn't it?

For full disclosure purposes, I hit the school admissions jackpot with a premature August born boy. He's probably above average in his class. This does not make the statistics surrounding summer born children any less true.

And while I'm being grumpy, Shrunken,if you have any bright suggestions for keeping women with severe preeclampsia and their babies alive whilst hanging on for a September birthday, I'm sure there are many doctors around the world who would love to hear from you. Whilst not technically rocket science, having a baby who turns up to a pre planned schedule can be a little trickier than you think.

I personally do not think that parents should be given the choice to defer, except in the case of SEN or premature babies where by their due date would have placed them in the year below. And I mean 'premature' being defined as less than 37 weeks (term)

My concern is that children who are more disadvantaged to begin with due to being looked after, struggling families etc will almost certainly NOT be deferred & if the rest of the children born that month are they will be the youngest by two months and 14 months younger than the oldest. I think for these children the gap will just widen even further.

But I have two April DDs so there is an element of ivory tower herer, not sure how I would feel if I had an August boy who was struggling.

Sorry, I'm also confused regarding some of the answers that they don't have to start school until they turn 5.
Wouldn't that make it worse??
I understand that they'll be more emotionally prepared, but they will still be up to a full year younger, and now they'll have a years less formal education as well?
I just don't see how that would do anything but exacerbate the problem??

Yes that's right rocket I also think, correct me if wrong? That school places may be an issue if they don't turn up in reception at all they risk losing the allocated place.

Hi toobreathless
I also don't see the helpfulness of deferring either, while it certainly help the children being deferred won't it essentially just be 'moving' who is the youngest?
So 'oldest' in class may be July/ August babies who have been deferred , youngest may be May/Jun, as the July/ Aug from that year will may have been deferred as well?
So essentially just changing the months?
I'm not sure what the answer is, but unfortunately there does have to be a cut off somewhere, so will always have oldest/youngest.

DS is 31st Aug birthday (born 2 weeks early) at 11.40pm.

He struggled in reception until about May time when things started to click slowly.

He is now in yr5 & tbh is still immature compared to his older classmates (& much smaller!) academically he is flying but I have found that his interests (fads) are about 9/10 months behind some of his classmates. Agree with other posters on the emotional maturity thing.

He is also v sporty but being v small can be a disadvantage on the football field when you are 9 & playing against 11 year olds!

I did think about deferring his reception place when he started school as IMO he just wasn't ready but thought it would disadvantage him more (missing out in phonics/numeracy etc) so decided to give f/t school a go & intervene if it wasn't working. He had a term of awfulness (screaming with tiredness, in bed by 6pm - but tbh I think this is normal for any reception kid starting school regardless of birth date).

DD is August born (a few weeks before EDD) and my MIL (teacher) was aghast. We had to have some words with her not to say things to DD about it and DD's ability, as she was openly worrying about it in front of DD, which isn't helpful as we can't defer her entry. The only thing we could do was to teach her to put on her coat herself, recognise her name etc.

Yes DD is the youngest in her class and yes she will be the last to turn 18/21 etc but we try to support her in the things she can do well and the things she can't, just like we would if she was born at any other time of the year.

I do believe she would have "ranked" better in the class being held back a year, but also she was ready for more structure in her days. DD is tall for her age so she isn't physically obvious as the youngest, which I think might help as those that don't know her birthday probably don't suspect she's young. I might well have held her back though, if that was an option.

Now she's a bit older, we do encourage educational things at home, iPad apps, board games etc. Mostly to give her confidence at school, that she's practicing things at home and they're not new to her at school. Her teacher is fabulous too and we're very lucky that her school is undersubscribed so she's in a small class size. She did start school 'behind' her older peers and it's inevitable that she would be, as she was nearly a quarter of her life younger than them. That's a long time when you're 5.

I would add that we do encourage DD to have aspirations, she doesn't have to be behind in everything but that she might need to work hard to catch up. Currently this is reading. DD was very slow to start reading phonics (summer before starting Year1) but if she was a September baby she would have gone into reception, having just started reading phonics, so not 'slow' at all.

It's a very fine line between pushing DD (who's still only in infants) and leaving her be (as I don't want her to despise reading). We try to make it fun, but as a parent, you want the best for your kids.

It certainly makes a difference in sport because the younger ones will be smaller.

Have only skimmed thread. but I'm interested that this is such a widely-discussed and 'live' issue in this country - I don't think I've ever seen it talked about as a widespread and problematic issue in Ireland, where I'm from. That's not to dispute the statistics, but still interesting to see how what is on people's radar as a potential problem varies from place to place.

I remember being absolutely gobsmacked when my friends in this country began having children, and people were factoring in not having 'summer babies' as a reason to time conception for a different part of the year.

I too have only skim read. Why is it so shocking that there would be a difference? It's like saying there is no difference between a newborn and a child who is about to turn one. At four a year is 1/4 of your whole lifespan, it is likely to make a difference. I am Summer born and I was one that flew at school, however, my July baby is not so lucky and is struggling.nnyes it depends on the child, but why would you even scoff at there being a link?