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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

WIBU to ask ex to reduce maintenance payments so I can reduce visits.

28 replies

RobbStarksBitch · 09/02/2015 11:30

Long story short I have a (nearly) 8 year old Ds with my ex. The relationship was not good by any means but I was young (15) when we got together and didn't know any better. Throughout our relationship he showed me numerous times that he was an arsehole but I ignored it as we had Ds and I thought he would eventually grow up and change/take responsibility. He didn't and at the end of our relationship he hit me and that was that as far as I was concerned. Ex and I never lived together for the 5 years of our relationship, which was his choice.

I then made the decision to take Ds and move to the UK to be around family as I was living in Ireland at the time, I told ex of this plan which he just sort of shrugged at Hmm after speaking to his parents however (and after our plane tickets were booked) I received a court summons. The up shot of this was that I was denied the right to move. I appealed this decision and the case was looked at again by a different judge who decided it was in mine and my sons best interests to be allowed to move. I would however have to facilitate visits back to Ireland so my son could have contact with ex. Dates etc were all discussed.

He also never paid a penny towards Ds until he was 4 years old (after the split and during our first court visit he was ordered to pay weekly)

It has now been 4 years since all of this and in that time ex has become less and less interested. Goes weeks as sometimes months without paying maintenance and always has an excuse (like needing money for his brothers wedding Hmm). In our agreement it says he is to visit 3 times a year. In the last 12 months he has visited once and in the 12 months before that twice so it's dwindling. He has only ever been the full 3 times once. I have to bring me son to visit 5 times a year which all fall in the school holidays obviously and cost a fortune, as well as having time off of work etc.

This was so much longer then I intended I'm sorry Sad

Wibu to speak to ex about this? He is obviously struggling to pay the maintenance/has better things to spend it on and I am struggling to fund all of these flights especially when he stops paying as and when he feels like it anyways. If he were to pay the maintenance religiously ever week it wouldn't even cover the flights let alone raising Ds anyways. I'd like to reduce the 5 visits to 3 in exchange for cutting the maintenance in half? Does this seem fair?

I'd just like to add that Ds does not benefit from a relationship with him or his family. He does not want to go (an opinion he has formed himself as he has grown, honestly has nothing to do with me). Ds would have no problem with reducing visits whatsoever.

OP posts:
IAmAShitHotLawyer · 09/02/2015 12:03

What does the court order say?

HereIAm20 · 09/02/2015 12:07

Usually I would say you can't deny the father the right to see his kids and that payment is to pay for that privilege. I think if you can have a conversation with him to explain that you can't afford all the trips back ( try not to say especially if you never stump up your maintenance,mate!). It is possible that he would agree to this anyway. I also believe if you had to go back to court the fact that he hasn't completed his side of the bargain ie. In terms of visits by him and maintenance would look well on you.

I suggest a conversation to start but not to get too embroiled in the you don't pay or seem to care but more on the basis that you can't get the time from work and can't afford the fares basis. Good luck. Would love to hear how it all pans out in the end. You seem to have behaved very reasonably and with responsibility for one so young.

HereIAm20 · 09/02/2015 12:08

Oops payment of maintenance is NOT for that privilege

fluffymouse · 09/02/2015 12:11

Are you court ordered to take ds to visit him 5 times a year?

Presumably you could discuss altering this with ex, but I think the child support is a separate issue and you shouldn't get the two confused.

MoanCollins · 09/02/2015 12:13

Personally I would say to him that he needs to start paying for the flights and that if he doesn't then your son doesn't go. He's rarely paying anyway so stopping paying for the flights will make you better off than waiting for maintenance that won't come. I don't think that you should effectively have to pay your ex for him agreeing to stop you making a payment you can't afford. Or could you perhaps agree to go halves? I don't think you paying for all the flights when he doesn't pay maintenance is fair or tenable.

Littlef00t · 09/02/2015 12:17

Although visitation rights isn't contigent on payment of maintenance, surely if your overall budget is reduced because you've not got the money from ex, you can be expected to keep up your side of your arrangement?

He's breaking the agreement and causing hardship to you, making it difficult to for you to keep to your side.

I'd definitely get in touch to try and reduce vists, but discussing maintenance should be a separate issue.

PtolemysNeedle · 09/02/2015 12:21

I don't think you can say for certain that your ds doesn't benefit from these visits. You might not be able to see an actual benefit now, but you probably would be able to see that little contact with his father has been detrimental as he becomes an adult.

Exchanging contact time for money is just wrong IMO, I don't think it would be right for you to suggest this. Same as it's not right that you don't get paid the maintenance you are owed.

If part of the agreement was that you would visit five times a year then you should stick to that. It's shit that your ex won't stick to his side of the deal, but you can only control yourself, and you should be doing the right thing by your ds regardless of what your ex does.

OstentatiousBreastfeeder · 09/02/2015 12:28

Don't offer a reduced maintenance. It's money for your son, he's not buying the right to see him.

How is your son's relationship with his dad's family, grandmother, aunts, uncles etc?

however · 09/02/2015 12:36

I wouldn't visit. Your child doesn't want to go. His father doesn't care enough to visit.

The 'oh but kids aren't pay per view' line is a nice sound bite but doesn't trump disinterested and stingy absent parents.

MythicalKings · 09/02/2015 12:44

Tell him that you can't afford the trips because he isn't paying maintenance.

BarbarianMum · 09/02/2015 12:49

If as a result of your ex not paying maintenance you cannot afford to travel to Ireland 5 times a year then stop going/go less and, if he takes you back to court, explain. Children aren't 'pay per view' but if he doesn't pay then of course that's going to affect your ability to afford transport (as well as everything else your ds needs).

And make a list of all the times/dates you've travelled, plus all the times/dates he's travelled plus all the payments he's made/not made. The money you save in travel can be spent on a solicitor if you need one.

TheRealMaryMillington · 09/02/2015 12:50

Does he have a good relationship with his paternal grandparents.

It strikes me that they were the drivers of this.

Get some really good legal advice- it seems like it is time to review these arrangements.

Also, separate the issues.

Get a detailed record together of maintenance payments and ask when he intends to pay what is owed or what is reasonable.

Tell him (and them) that you cannot afford to bring him/it is putting your job at risk/and ask what he intends to do about that. Appeal to GP's better nature if they have one.

He can come over and visit/collect him (do you have to make 2 trips, or stay whilst he does); or he can pay for you both; or he can reduce the number of visits. He and his grandparents are of course welcome to visit and have access in the UK at mutual convenience.

VenusRising · 09/02/2015 12:50

It's not pay per view you know. The money he owes his DS should be paid in full and be up to date, just for the boy.

The visits are separate and should be renegotiated with your son's point of view as the major issue. If he doesn't want to see his dad, he shouldn't have to. Go back to court.

Get a family mediator to sort it out in your head- they're cheap and will help you formulate your negotiation plan.

OstentatiousBreastfeeder · 09/02/2015 12:50

Not to sound harsh, but the OP moved country, it was her choice.

Presumably the contact arrangement was a compromise so that OP could get what she wanted; to move, and the grandparents (and his dad) would still get to see her DS regularly. It's not as simple as 'well he's not bothered so why should she'. To the court it may seem as though now OP has what she wants she's trying to back out of what she agreed to.

I also agree with PtolemysNeedle, unless there's some sort of unreasonable behaviour on the exIL's part, you don't know there's no benefit to be had from him getting to know the other side of his family. He may thank you for it one day.

Either way, in a few years, DS may well request they stop altogether and there's not much anyone will be able to do about that.

BarbarianMum · 09/02/2015 13:07

Not to sound harsh, but the OP moved country to get closer to a family/friends support network, seeing as she was the one bringing up a child with no support and minimal interest from the father Seems reasonible to me, though I'm sure it would have been nicer for all concerned if she'd just struggled on alone in Ireland just so child's dad could have had a look at him occasionally.

BarbarianMum · 09/02/2015 13:08

-apologies for all spelling mistakes

OstentatiousBreastfeeder · 09/02/2015 13:11

I didn't suggest she was being unreasonable by wanting to move, just that it was her decision and that decision came with compromises.

TheyLearnedFromBrian · 09/02/2015 13:18

Firstly, what does the order say?

Secondly - my first move would be to send him a solicitors letter telling him that partly due to his failure to pay maintenance, you cannot afford to make the next trip to Ireland. You suggest that, as he has also failed to make the agreed journeys to visit, that instead of you visiting in the next holiday, he comes to see you during the same period, as he is overdue a visit.

Thus you get it recorded legally that a. he's not paying maintenance and b. he's not actually bothered about visiting.

Then sit back and wait.

I will bet you anything he will let it go. What the hell is he supposed to say?

  • You have to come, it's court ordered.
  • But you don't bother to.
  • I can't afford it
  • Then neither can we.
  • Why not, it's important etc.
  • Because partly you don't support DS as well as not coming to see him
  • Ummm...

I'd bet you either hear no more from him, or his parents will get in touch and either send you the fare or speak to you about the maintenance. And if you really wanted to give them a poke, you'll continue to insist that for this holiday, it's his turn to visit, and you won't be coming over until he's made a trip.

TikiTigeress · 09/02/2015 13:22

How is the order worded? Does it expressly say you have to pay to take him across or just that you have to facilitate in making him available?
Tbh if you can't afford the flights then you can't afford them, I'm guessing your bank statements back this up so in effect it could be argued that by having to pay out for these visits it's causing a detrimental effect on your sons welfare and wellbeing. I would speak to a solicitor in the first instance to find out how youd be placed in getting a variation of the order.

bibliomania · 09/02/2015 14:55

This is not probably going to be the best forum to get advice about Irish family law. If that's where the court order was issued, that's the applicable law.

I wouldn't say to your ex "You pay less and we'll visit less". I might let it drift a little - go once or twice but not the full five times. If your ex starts complaining, you can point to the fact that he hasn't used up his three opportunities to come and visit in the UK.

That said, I do think you should make the effort to go to Ireland once or twice a year. I think it's probably too much to say that he gets no benefit at all from the contact.

Original poster
RobbStarksBitch · 09/02/2015 19:31

First of all sorry I'm only just replying now, I've had no internet all day because we switched providers and it's only just come back on Confused

I'll try and answer questions as best as I can.

The court order does not say that it is financially my responsibility to pay for flights, but his solicitors made it clear it was my responsibility. Does that make sense? I was told it was my responsibility to pay but it's not actually recorded in the order.

I know that my son is not pay per view, so forgive me if that is how it came across Sad I know how my ex's mind works and I just thought this solution would appeal to him if I'm honest.

In regards to my sons paternal family, he depends more time with his fathers parents when he visits then he does his actual father which is sad. They were the driving force for the court issue and I'm sure some of it was done out of love but it was mostly to control me. They are not nice people and I have as little contact as humanly possible with them now as if I'm honest they still frighten me a little. My ex's mother asked what I'd done after her son hit me Sad and his father was accused of a violent crime before I got together with my ex, something I only truly learned the full extent about after we split.

One thing I'm honestly sure about is that these visits to not benefit my son. He goes from being a happy, funny, caring little boy to being quiet and withdrawn. He starts to grind his teeth as wet the bed before and after visits Sad

He has asked me what age he has to be before he can change his name (ATM it's double barrelled his fathers name-my name) and when he can legally change his daddy Sad

OP posts:
babybarrister · 09/02/2015 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChrisMooseAlbanians · 09/02/2015 19:40

If it is having this effect on your son, get a solicitor and get legal advice. I couldn't force my child to see people they quite clearly don't want to see Sad

ChrisMooseAlbanians · 09/02/2015 19:41

((not that YOU are forcing your son to go, but you know what I meant)

bibliomania · 11/02/2015 11:05

Thanks for the correction, baby.

Robb, the information about your ds suffering due to contact does change things. If you speak to a solicitor, focus on that - the money side of things is beside the point. Is there anyone else who can give evidence about this change in your son - nursery, GP et?

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