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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Strep B tests should be offered to all pregnant women?

188 replies

plinkyplonks · 06/02/2015 19:35

Hadn't even heard of Strep B if it hadn't been for Bumpfest.

My midwife says Strep B tests are not offered as standard on NHS!

Please, please, please consider signing this petition if you think this is a test that should be offered to all pregnant women:

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60515

OP posts:
divafever24 · 08/02/2015 14:07

Until my dd was diagnosed with strep b at 3 days old I had never heard of it. She was very poorly but fortunately with antibiotics she made a full recovery. I realise how very lucky we are when I discovered the strep b support group. I signed the petition some time ago. I am now pregnant again and have spoken with the hospital midwife about my concerns this time round so they have agreed to test me later in my pregnancy. I feel so relived but I cannot understand why it is not done routinely.

divafever24 · 08/02/2015 14:09

Oh and I had already looked into getting one done privately, www.groupbstrptest.co.uk offer on for £30

divafever24 · 08/02/2015 14:10

Sorry should be www.groupbstreptest.co.uk

toobreathless · 08/02/2015 14:40

math Feel free to dismiss my explanations of the risks associated with screening as 'ridiculous' I am fully aware of the risks of Group B Strep, I am a paediatric doctor. Respectfully, I do not think you understand how to read a scienfitic paper and some of your links are dubious. I will not waste more time engaging with you.

IdaClair · 08/02/2015 14:51

I would not have the test, because of the unreliability of the result, and because I wouldn't act on the results, positive or negative.

If, as above, the different between at-risk screening and universal screening is small , then other factors need to be considered as part of the package. That may include things like - changes in protocol surrounding birth and immediate postpartum period that can have negative effects on mother and baby. Such as induction of labour so IV antibiotics can be planned, increased recommendation for planned c-section (when unwanted), increased transfer to clu, all of which can increase risks over spontaneous birth, increase in planned hospital deliveries (when unwanted or unwise, such as in cases of precipitous birth) impacts on lengths of hospital stays, impacts on breastfeeding (thrush etc) maternal mental health, tethering of labour, anxiety.....the fact that it doesn't prevent late onset AND the big one which is population wide antibiotic resistance and vulnerability in hospital settings to other communicable diseases.

mathanxiety · 08/02/2015 22:22

Toobreathless What links are 'dubious' the CDC and all its references in the link I provided, or 'Emerging Trends in the Epidemiology of Invasive Group B Streptococcal Disease in England and Wales, 1991–2010' in oxfordjournals.org? Or the many references found in evidencebasedbirth?

I must say it's odd to find a doctor who refused to take seriously publications of the CDC.

'So, the US system does not provide better results and creates AB resistence, basically meaning that in the future many more children will die.'
That is bollocks, CarolDecker. There is no 'so' about it.
Bacteria develop resistance to ABs. This is not a problem associated only with prophylactic AB use that seeks to prevent life threatening infection in newborns. By your reasoning all AB use should immediately stop. The links you provided show no solid basis for the risk assessment approach. Not surprising since it has been proven inadequate. The RCOG leaflet makes it clear that there are higher priorities than saving babies' lives. the leaflet linked to in the first leaflet states 'The incidence of culture-confirmed early-onset disease in the USA has fallen in association with the introduction of screening pregnant women for GBS' but offers no reason why culture based routine screening should not take place n the UK even though it offers the possibility of reducing rates of culture-confirmed infection. There seems to be complacency about rates of infection. Or perhaps the prospect of political battles that nobody has the stomach for over 'medicalised birth' has led to the fence sitting.

minifingers Sun 08-Feb-15 10:43:09
It worries me that anyone thinks health policies should be decided by people who (largely) haven't read the research or who don't undersland it rather than by epidemiologists, doctors and other researchers in the field
That's why it is so great that US maternity protocols are decided by epidemiologists, doctors and other researchers in the field...

Your objections to 'intervention' seem to be based on an assumption that a 'natural' birth outside a CLU would not involve prolonged labour with ruptured membranes. Most of your post of Sun 08-Feb-15 09:18:42 was speculation. I would like to see the studies illustrating the basis of your cascade of fears.
Does 'end up' come with the implication of a woman defeated by the system?

Heynowbill: Can I just point out that I said Stapn aureus bacteraemia as a result of unnecessary cannulation (ie the cannula site being the portal of entry) NOT Staph infection at a cannula site. That's not the same thing at all and the complete opposite of insignificant.

This is bollocks too, since a cannula delivering ABs to a labouring women with GBS identified by culture at 35-37 weeks is the opposite of unnecessary. Anyone can develop Staph aureus bacteraemia if they have a cannula (or catheter) and if meticulous sterile technique has been ignored. S. aureus is a very common cause of human infection across all hospital populations. It doesn't just affect women in labour. In every single case of an IV being used, the risk of Staph aureus bacteraemia is weighed against the benefits of the IV. Should all use of IVs be halted immediately until we know more about S. aureus? Or until we have a way to deal with MRSA? Or should we just keep on relying on nurses to do their jobs properly?

caroldecker · 08/02/2015 23:41

math the experts disagree with you

JassyRadlett · 09/02/2015 00:07

Carol, part of the issue is that the experts don't really agree with each other, and their policy positions aren't based on pure medicine or science (on either side of the debate).

So it's an issue of 'which experts am I going to listen to'. Which is a difficult call for most laypeople.

RolandRatRocks · 09/02/2015 00:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

deadenddan · 09/02/2015 00:47

Bollocks the Nice makes choices based on cost Vs risk and it costs more to test than it does to treat the babies who get sick from it. That's the harsh truth of it.

360 babies get gbs every year. 100 are born with spinabifuda. Why do we test for one and not the other when the former is more prevalent ? Ongoing treatment cost Vs test cost.

And that 360 is those that are proven, how many stillbirths and cot deaths are actually caused by undiagnosed as such?

Dnephew died from GBS. My DC3 contracted it. She was in NICU for a week with her veins all blown from canulers.

The only difference in their survival was we didn't know Dsis was a carrier. Had we then she wouldn't have been left with ruptured membranes for 48hrs. Had i not known we would have been home after an easy fast birth when DDs temperature shot up and she wouldn't have been observed and treated.

In reality ok it stopped a home birth but I hypnobirthed, was fully mobile, could have used a pool had there been time as the hospital offered waterproof drips. It made my birth no more "medicalised". ALL that knowledge did was transfer the power to be aware to make steps to reduce risk factors and to observe.

Shakshuka · 09/02/2015 00:47

You could say that about any prophylactic antibiotic use.

And the nhs does offer abs in labour to women who are gbs positive, they just won't test.

caroldecker · 09/02/2015 00:49

this paper suggests IVAB make no difference anyway

mathanxiety · 09/02/2015 03:53

RolandRat, every time an IV is used, the risk/benefit is weighed with the balance coming down heavily on benefit. Thousands of IVs are inserted daily in the UK.

At the moment, the best identification method available leads to AB delivery during labour, with the enormous benefit of saving lives. The benefit outweighs the risk. GBS is the most common cause of life threatening infection in newborns.

Carol:
GBS has risen by approx 32% in the UK in the last ten years. Experts all over the world have found the evidence in support of culture based routine screening compelling. Currently routine screening is offered to all pregnant women in the US, Canada, Australia and many European countries including France (despite NICE; and yes NICE is about bean counting) - these countries have reported 80% drops in infection rates thanks to routine screening and routine administration of ABs to women experiencing preterm labour.

www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e2803/rr/581189
'On myths about GBS' --
"research looking at just this issue repeatedly finds universal screening would be more cost effective and more clinically effective in the UK than the risk based strategy11-13;19 and these papers do not include in their analysis the fact that the Royal College of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists’s 2003 guideline20 is inconsistently applied21. A recently published UK study has shown that 81% of mothers who should have been offered intrapartum antibiotic prophylaxis because of risk factors did not receive it, and the authors estimated that 48% of babies who suffered EOGBS infection could have had their disease prevented22. Perhaps part of the problem with the risk-based strategy is that it is too complex – to be effective any strategy needs to be both easy to understand and easy to implement.

Despite pointing out that the media often don’t mention the potential harms of screening, Dr McCartney omitted to mention one of its key benefits - the major falls seen in the incidence of early onset GBS disease in all western countries which have introduced screening14-17. We know of no country presenting before and after data that has not shown a substantial reduction in the incidence after screening was introduced. In contrast, in the UK the incidence of EOGBS infection has risen since the risk-based prevention guidelines were introduced by the Royal College of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists in 200320 and is continuing to do so. The Health Protection Agency has found that voluntarily reported cases in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have risen from 229 in 200323 to 302 in 201024. The incidence of EOGBS disease in England, Wales & Northern Ireland is now 0.41 per 1,000 live births, which is higher than the USA post-universal screening (0.34 per 1,000 live births in 200814)."

I actually perceive a growing tide of acceptance that the NHS is barking up the wrong tree. Yes there are holdouts who for reasons of their own recoil from the idea of intervention in labour, but their objections are demolished by the clear evidence of success elsewhere.

You can look up the footnotes yourself.

Philip Steer, consultant obstetrician at Chelsea & Westminster Hospital, editor in chief of the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, emeritus professor at Imperial College, and chair of the GBSS medical advisory panel, said: “Group B Strep infection is the commonest infection complicating labour and the newborn period, and the evidence is that in the UK the problem is increasing, affecting up to as many as 1,000 babies and their families per year. For too many, the complication is fatal.”

He said there is “compelling evidence” that, in other countries where routine screening of mothers at 35 to 37 weeks gestation has been introduced there have been “reductions of four fifths or more in the rate of infections due to GBS”.

www.gbss.org.uk/filepool/GBSSReport_2013.pdf

Philip Steer addressing HoC reception wrt GBS.

Wrt the risk based approach -- 'in the UK, '70% of carriers had no risk factors'.

RolandRatRocks · 09/02/2015 07:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RolandRatRocks · 09/02/2015 07:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kneedeepinshittynappies · 09/02/2015 09:33

I was diagnosed at 39 weeks with dd. worst part was the breezy, blasé way that I was informed! Quick phone call with no information, told they were sending me a sticker for my notes but needed to call me as I was so close to due date that post might not reach me on time!!

I googled! I was absolutely terrified! I called and requested a meeting with the midwife to go over my fears which did help. In the end I had 20 mins Iv abs and still had my water birth in the midwife led suite. It wasa fairly long second labour but was my 2nd back to back baby (and she was a bit of a whopper) so I don't think the abs made any difference to my labour really. I had to stay in longer so they could monitor dd.

Every bit though, the worry and stress (could have been avoided with better mw care), the Iv in labour and the extended hospital stay after birth, I would go through a million times over for my healthy little girl!

mathanxiety · 09/02/2015 19:05

The figures we have are reliable, involving millions of women from the US. The only figures that are currently being questioned are figures from the UK that are suspected by many in the field to paint a rosier picture than is warranted.

According to Prof Steer, over 90% of those testing positive at 35-37 weeks remain positive at time of delivery.

The objections you raise are for miniscule potentialities, as Dr Steer outlined -- 1.3 million women treated in the US before there was a single fatality due to prophylactic AB use. The figure to compare this with is the number of dead babies. You are wringing your hands about the 10% who don't need them. Meanwhile, the UK risk-based approach misses 70% of women who actually have GBS and thus babies are put at risk of infections that are life threatening. (See the Youtube link)

What you are using as an objection is not simply a 'rare' risk. It is infinitesimally rare.

Do you complain about vaccination too?

mrsannekins · 09/02/2015 19:17

I'm totally in agreement, it should be a standard test, like the rubella antibody blood screening.

I think the UK has a very non-intervention unless necessary approach which I do agree with. Having seen how medicalised a lot of births in the US are for example, I would hate having regular pelvic exams when pregnant (just one example).

BUT I think routinely testing in late pregnancy at least, say from 36 weeks onwards, would prevent a lot of full term or overdue babies from becoming unnecessarily poorly from something that is easily treatable, much as my first daughter did. Although it was never diagnosed, I believe that I had an 'active' GBS infection when i gave birth to her 3 years ago. But I had no clue that that I could be GBS positive until I had to have swabs taken in EPAU at 8 weeks pg this time and it came back for GBS.

Whether GBS is transient or not, and there is every chance that it may be dormant when I give birth in less than 6 weeks time (hopefully), I would rather be cautious and receive antibiotic treatment than be left with another poorly baby and being fobbed off by the NHS time and time again as to why.

But the NHS doesn't like to be proactive and stop people from being ill, rather wait until they are and faff around fixing it then (sorry, minor NHS rant there).

mathanxiety · 09/02/2015 19:32

(I am pretty sure regular pelvic exams are not part of routine antenatal care in the US. They are done beginning at 37 weeks by some practitioners to check cervical status, afaik. You get a pelvic exam when you have your first appointment as part of the diagnosis and they usually do a pap smear at that appointment depending on the interval since your last one.)

Rhianna1980 · 09/02/2015 20:33

Signed!

RolandRatRocks · 09/02/2015 20:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sn00p4d · 09/02/2015 20:55

I don't really understand the problem. Like any other test offered in pregnancy you would be within your rights to refuse it. It should be offered and then the individual can make their own mind up, same as everything else. If it was an option available to me, I'd take it, other people might not and that's fine but the choice should be there when it is a condition that can be and has been a cause of death.

3isthemajicnumber · 09/02/2015 21:15

The petition linked at the beginning of this thread suggests a few changes in the way the nhs deals with gbs.

Only one of these points is universal routine screening and a change to risk based screening.

IMO the most important change would be standard information provided to every pregnant woman in the uk at booking in. This way expectant parents can make informed choices about gbs.

My ds was born with gbs infection and I signed this petition for these reasons as I had no idea what it was and the impact on my child. I'm currently 36 weeks with dc3 and will have the iv antibiotics in labour.

caroldecker · 09/02/2015 21:34

So, just laying out the maths:

20% of women infected at test, 1:2000 babies infected, 70% of these recover fully, c 700,000 live births, IVAB 80% effective

Broadly speaking with full screening

140,000 women a year giving birth with IVAB
14 babies have GBS infection
9 recover fully
3 have some disability
2 die

No testing at all

70 babies have GBS infection
49 recover fully
14 have some disability
7 die

You only need a mortality rate for IV insertions of 1:28,000 for mother deaths to equal baby deaths

Rosa · 09/02/2015 21:45

Its part of routine tests in Italy you are tested from 36 weeks ish. It is a swab like a cotton bud round your bum - takes less than 30 seconds - takes you longer to get your clothes back on!!!

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