To think it won't be long before we have workhouses again?

[MrsTawdry]

I really know very little about politics but I know that there's a proportion of people who love benefits bashing and love abusing those who receive housing benefit etc.

It occurred to me recently that one "answer" to the housing crisis might be a sort of "Housing Centre" ....basic blocks of flats sort of thing...where occupants lose a portion of their JSA in return for a roof...and from there it's a step to being given food vouchers as part of benefits and working on a voluntary basis....litter picking etc.

Could this happen? Could a government legislate and make this happen?

The old workhouses were grim and associated with punishment and stigma, and people were badly treated and miserable.

BUT I do think there is scope for thinking about new models of state-supported housing that would be an option for people in various situations who are currently left to struggle with a benefits system that involves loads of jumping through hoops, form-filling and sanctions, which some people jsut can't cope with. People with mental health issues, people who are recently out of prison and have no option but to beg floor space from the people they knew before, who are still doing drugs etc and so they fall right back into it; the homeless in general; ex-military (who often have MH issues), young people who have run away from home, etc.

Hostel-type buildings with private rooms/bedsits, but also shared communal space with staff and support systems to help people train in skills, apply for jobs, rehabilitate etc. or for some people, they would be a permanent home possibly attached to a workplace like a farm or factory.

There could be hostels for specific purposes eg MH support, ex-military, young mothers and children, or just gender-separated to reduce certain risks.

Of course it would take money to do this properly and also I think the architecture is important - they would need to be positive places not grim and miserable. But the idea would be to save the system money long-term, by reducing offending, and people continually being thrown into expensive, emergency crises by the current housing/welfare system.

The housing system we have now, where most people are expected to somehow have a fully independent and self-contained dwelling, is pricing so many people out and causes social problems - which end up costing more.

Agree with the hostel for MPs too - but I thought there actually was something like that near the HoC?

well it should be compulsory and no more allowances for flats in London.

MadderPink - Bearing in mind that the old Workhouses were built by the same plans for prisons!

Frankly I think you have a good point. I have been thinking this about this government for some time.

If you read some passages from Oliver Twist where Dickens talks about the authorities being "philosophers" (tongue in cheek) there is a chilling similarity to the rhetoric you get from modern politicians.

I haven't RTFT so sorry if I am behind.

HowCanIMiss - that is very well written, and very plausible.

I can ABSOLUTELY see it happening.

I have been waiting 15months now for an operation to help my mobility. Then I would need a second one. No operation is in sight. My patient group has been 'removed from the waiting list' by the hospital. My health remains poor. I can now add depression to the list of issues I face.

I 'no longer qualify' for employment support allowance 'because another adult in the household earns too much'. H earns 20K. I am not seen as a separate economic unit. For the same reasons I cannot claim jobseekers allowance. Last August I qualified. Last September I didn't as the £ is time limited (if only my Operation were).

So, only 1 working adult.
We cannot manage on our income.
We have already sold my car. H needs his for work (no buses here) but it is 15 years old. What happens when it dies and cannot be replaced.
We will lose our home later this year if things do not improve. It's been up for sale for 3 years. it might well be repossessed.
Is there anywhere for us to go? No.

I am one of the 'feckless poor' that the DM so love to hate and the hideous tv progs love to 'warn of'.

Sorry for pity party. It's real. It's happening.
Not only are vunerable people not helped - they are now the 'undeserving poor' again. We are most certainly going backwards.

I find it very hard to believe that 'Work fare' or any kind of 'working for your Benefits' can be helpful. If for example people claiming Job Seekers have to work shifts in Tesco or other large companies who sign up for the scheme for 'work experience', and these companies are guaranteed to have a certain number of people there for free, then how can that not impact on the number of paid positions they then offer? And while perhaps it can give someone with no work experience who is looking for a similar job something to write in their CV and sonething to mention in an interview, does it really help anyone who is looking for any other kind of job? The whole system of JSA is practically obstructive, in my job I've seen grown men in tears because they must apply online through their official Job Seeking account but they have no computer skills or email address, and only have the access to the Library computers for 1 hour a day. Yet they have to fill in multiple online applications each week or their money would stop. Library cuts themselves meant there were 2 staff on a floor with 30 computers, so we couldn't give anything like the level of support the job centre would casually tell them we could. If you've been in a physical job such as labouring etc you tend to find jobs in a different way such as speaking to ex colleagues etc, paper applications and CVs, but this doesn't count if the right number of online applications aren't done. The free computer courses we did for people were 1 hour a week with 8 people and 2 staff members, we had 200 people on a list for it. And have you tried to teach the concept and practical use of email to someone who can't use a keyboard or mouse, in 1 hour? People are lowered and frustrated and made to feel worthless by this system. I would rather have a benefits system that isn't begrudged and belittled and sanctioned by those in charge of it. The way to stop abuse of the system shouldn't be to punish everyone in it.

Sorry to hear that Dawg. I hope your luck changes soon.

Madder that sounds really chilling. So anyone unlucky becomes an inmate, essentially? Good luck with financing the positive architecture that gives a gloss to the whole grim scheme, too.

YY to PP mentioning Dickens and the concept of the 'undeserving poor' being one this government plays on. It's so very true and incredibly depressing.

This will most likely out me but I'm not sure I care as I did nothing wrong. I was sanctioned three years ago as I was late for an appointment, I was ten minutes late, the reason why was, as it got off the bus to go to the job centre my stepmum rang to tell me dad had been taken into hospital ill, I was early at this time so popped to shop to get a bottle of water to calm myself down, then phone rang again as I was literally outside the building to tell me he had passed away. My Adviser wasn't impressed and said it's the oldest excuse in the book and I wasn't crying,(was in shock it was so sudden) To be fair the other staff were very sympathetic but I still got sanctioned. Had to take a loan out to buy flowers for dad's funeral, it would have been difficult to do anyway without the sanction, didn't tell family about it as they were all upset enough. Panicked in case dad's funeral happened on a signing day or I'd be sanctioned again but luckily it didn't.

Arsenic - thanks - didn't mean to 'overshare'

But there are LOADS of folk stuck due to ill health and poverty who are struggling to better themselves who are being demonised by the current system which is actually very financially inefficient in itself.

I have been calculating the cost of all the hosp appts where I am sent away, the letters, the time on benefit whilst I wait, the cost of the drugs to try to keep me moving, VS, what is a relatively quick and simple operation.

But I wont show up on any waiting list / official statistic whilst the Govt pull the rug from under my family.

INicked - that is awful. I am so sorry for your loss.
Petty sanctioning to meet targets seems to be a real issue.

I had to wait for a 'telephone interview' recently. The JobCentre caller was nearly 2 hours late calling. They questioned me closely about when I had last seen my GP, what about etc, despite me not receiving any benefits now except my NI stamps (which may not be worth having by the time I 'retire'). They were also supposed to offer me advice, as a disabled person, about returning to the workforce. The call lasted 2mins. I have never received advice or support in the whole time I have been unable to work. Had I not been 'available' for that call (say I had been upstairs in the loo and unable to get to the phone on time - a real possibility as I am very slow on stairs) I would have been sanctioned.

SOCIAL HOUSING DOESN'T MEAN BENEFITS.

no. it usually means subsidised housing though.

many people live in insecure private rental accommodation.

if private tenancy is insecure, isn't it better and more fair to make private tenancy secure so that private tenants and social housing tenants have the same security?

I am really saddened by the lack of sympathy and compassion shown on this thread. I hate scroungers as much as the next person but I feel that it is my business to contribute to the upkeep of the unlucky.

ConferencePear You and me both, as I have just shockingly discovered it is very easy to find yourself unlucky, very quickly.

Simple well when people are paid enough to afford private rentals then there won't be a need for that will there?

With many people earning less than minimum wage and rents sky high, unfortunately there are those who would not have a home without social housing.

They'd be on the streets. Would you prefer that?

*Simple well when people are paid enough to afford private rentals then there won't be a need for that will there?

With many people earning less than minimum wage and rents sky high, unfortunately there are those who would not have a home without social housing.

They'd be on the streets. Would you prefer that?*

This, all day long, and then some - minimum wage? maximum wage for many.

They'd be on the streets. Would you prefer that?

is that directed at me? I don't see how you got that from what I said.

More housing is needed for rents to come down. I wouldn't mind seeing a foreign stamp duty either, so that less people buy without occupying. London is a magnet for foreign speculation, make it cost a little more.

Simple you said...or hinted...the fact that subsidising social housing is wrong. Is that not what you were getting at?

Madder

You are talking about prison when you speak of rehabilitation and of course separating families, e.g young mothers and children.

This is what it was like as recently as the 1960's and you want to go back there again.
Were you intending it to sound like children should share a hostel type accommodation with ex cons?

potato at the least she suggested "gender separation to reduce risks"

So....workhouses then.

Perhaps the law of private renting needs to be changed. In France, for example, you cannot evict people in the winter months.

you said...or hinted...the fact that subsidising social housing is wrong. Is that not what you were getting at?

somebody said that social housing doesn't mean benefits, implying that there isn't any state help involved. I was saying that's subsidised, so state help is involved.

I didn't make a judgement call on that.

however, while I understand that people want housing benefit (yes, rents are too high), I don't think that's the right way to solve a housing problem as it actually does nothing to address the underlying problem, which is a shortage of housing.

that's -> that it's