To think that the UK shouldn't be flying flags at half-mast because the Saudi king is dead?

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

This comes from the website of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

Half-masting instructions
It is with great regret that we learn of the death of the King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz, King of Saudi Arabia.

It is requested that all flags be half-masted from 8am today until 8pm this evening.

Any other UK national flags flown alongside the Union Flag when it is at half-mast should also be at half-mast. If a flag of a foreign nation is normally flown on the same stand as the Union Flag, it should be removed.

Local authorities are not bound by this request but may wish to follow it for guidance. Devolved administrations are responsible for issuing instructions for the flying of the Union Flag on buildings in their estate and others as necessary.

Not in my name, thanks! If Saudi Arabia didn't have all that oil we would be treating it as a rogue state. A state that can sentence a man to 1000 lashes for simply expressing an opinion isn't fit to be treated as a civilized country.

He is seen as a liberal reformist partly because more women are in higher education than ever before and women are also allowed to work in certain professions which in the past was unheard of

Pity his 'liberalism' doesn't extend to his own daughters who have been under house arrest for the last 13 years for speaking out in favour of womens and human rights.

They are held as effective prisoners with limited supplies of food and medical treatment and have been drugged and physically abused.

muftah.org/interview-imprisoned-daughter-saudi-arabias-king-abdullah/#.VMKu1UvSzVu

rt.com/news/162452-saudi-princesses-denied-food/

He also approved amendments to the law that removed the six month limit on detaining individuals without a court case, so that now people can be detained indefinitely and he approved new anti-terrorism laws that defines atheism, secularism and free thought as terrorist activity, resulting in the arrest and imprisonment of genuine liberal reformers.

F**ing scandalous that our government is kowtowing to this evil bastard and the rest of his his family.

I don't think right now it's 'oil' (though obviously that's important)

I think it's 'Syria' and/or 'ISIS'

It's shameful

it is a combination of both oil and Syria and Yemen and ISIS - human rights in Saudi are terrible we all know that. But we can either keep KSA happy and keep diplomatic relations with them and have petrol at 1.06 a litre or we can cut diplomatic relations and have petrol at 5 pounds a litre. While there is oil in KSA running our cars and heating our homes. and providing thousands of jobs to Westerners the status quo will continue.

Things will change in KSA albeit slowly - when they were more or less closed to the rest of the world it was easy to stay so backward, but when a country starts to allow their young men and women to go to the West for education then they will want change and it will eventually start to happen.

There have been small changes in the last 4/5 years - live comedy shows (hidden away in the desert, but allowed just the same), 'open' coffee shops ie where women don't have to hide behind curtains to drink their coffee. Small things to us but huge to KSA.

KSA has huge issues with unemployment and lack of housing - they need our money and with diplomatic relations carrying on changes will be made. But they have to be small and careful in order not to upset the hardliners who, if they took over, could case complete chaos in the region. It's a very complicated situation all round.

Thanks Desertmum for a very measured response.

We should not have lowered flags, and only Prince Charles should be going to meet the new KIng, if he was a friend of the old one as is reported. David Cameron should not be going.

YANBU but it isn't "the UK", it's England.

Scotland refused point blank.

I think it was UK as link describes criticsm but not non-compliance also, there was no 'precedent set' unless this is the first time it has happened since devolution (surely not, and anyhow, diplomacy and head of state aren't devolved).

Also, I expect Cameron is going because working funerals are extremely important diplomatically. ISIS/Syria etc are so important right now, he's be foolish to miss a gathering. (Wasn't there a whole episode of 'Yes Minister' which made that very plain?)

Did you read your link?

"The mark of respect was not adopted north of the border.

A Scottish government spokesman said: "We offer the people of Saudi Arabia our condolences following the passing of King Abdullah.

"Flags are not routinely flown at half-mast from Scottish government buildings to mark the deaths of foreign heads of government or state.""

desertmum puts it well.
Not to lower flags for a monarch would be seen as a snub.

I did, but must have skipped that line as it appeared halfway down and just under a banner on my display. The thrust of the rest of the article was totally different. Were any flags flying over the Palace of Holyroodhouse? And if so, full or half mast?

Scotland did not vote 'yes' by the way. They should not opt out of matters which have not been devolved. (I wish they had, personally, but also that the result had been respected as everyone said it would be before SNP decided to ignore that).

Scotland does fly flags from its government/council buildings yes. The "instructions" from the WM government specifically said that the devolved nations should do as they felt fit. I believe (?) Holyrood Palace only flies flag when the queen is in residence.

You might not have skipped the line - it might not have been there when you read it. The BBC frequently updates/changes its online articles without any indication.

I think that Scotland looks, at best, naive over this.

desertmum has put it well. And the PM will have all sorts of meetings in the margins during the visit. Not just with the Saudis, but also other national leaders.

This BBC article lists some of the world leaders who will be in Saudi Arabia this weekend I can see why it's a good opportunity

I know this is only tangentially related to this thread, but has there been any news on the Japanese hostages? The deadline passed some time ago.

If those gathered for the funeral are talking about serious matters such as what to do about ISIS, then I hope it will lead to progress (even though the idea of a 'working funeral' does seem rather tasteless).

I've just seen that Obama is altering itinerary of visit to India and will be going to Saudi Arabia.

I'm not nearly so bothered about that sort of thing. What amazed me was that we were lowering flags here in the UK as if we were all in mourning for this mediaeval despot.

We lower them for all monarchs.

I don't think this is the time for a direct snub.

If the practice needs to be changed, then probably better to do so on the death of a friendly ally, so a new precedent is set without risking a fuss.

I don't see that HMQ (now the world's oldest reigning monarch) is likely to make the change. But a new monarch might look at this, and other monarchical aspects of international diplomacy and the subtle signals that matter there.

YANBU (sorry, is this thread in AIBU? Not sure). Anyway, I too am wondering why we afford this man so much respect and I live in the middle east.

KSA is getting towards the last of its oil… they've only got about 20 years worth left. So it's not that.

I think it is because he was considered 'moderate' and an 'ally'.

Because oil.

medi, we don't lower then for all monarchs, only the ones the govt chooses to honour. They should not honour misognyistic, homophobic, murderous human rights abusers. Not in my name and not in the name of most British people judging by the reaction to this move.

After the row about the flag when Diana died you'd think they knew better. Blaming the public for not understanding protocol is wrong - it's OUR country and we are not serfs. Occasionally we say Up With This We Will Not Put and this is one of those times.

Which monarchs (say since end WW2) have they not been lowered for?

(genuine question, and were they still regnant or former monarchs)

I couldn't agree more OP. It's a total disgrace and unbelievably hypocritical of our Gov' (or any western Gov't) to be fawning over them. Saudi Arabia has one of the worse human rights records on the planet.

We were all outraged at the terrible murders in Paris of the Charlie H cartoonists, yet in Saudi Arabia, (apart from the public beheadings and its violent discrimination against women) among their many violations of human rights, the punishment for journalists who “insult Islam” is flogging.