To think this is not normal behaviour for a 4 year old??

[Pinkoyster795]

I don't know if what he's doing is normal, or not, but I really REALLY find it hard to deal with almost 4 year old DS without losing my temper. I'm trying so bloody hard to avoid shouting at him, and it works mostly, but somedays (today), he's so trying it's unbelievable. I don't know whether I have a low patience threshold though (most fecking probably).

Examples of things he does:

1. Will want to change clothes several times a day. Then has hissy fit if I say no he can't. He will wear only clothes he's picked himself. Hissy fit if I pick his clothes.
2. Will only eat using certain cutlery-hissy fit if not available.
3. Will rearrange entire layout of room on daily basis (rug, all stuff he can move), hissy fit if I move it back (I only do this for logistic reasons-he puts rug in front of his door, and I can't shut his door unless I move the rug back to where it was)
4. Uses all my creams, lotions and potions. Hissy fit if I put them away.
5. Has to know what he's having for packed lunch at nursery that day from the morning. Hissy fit if it's not what he wants.
6. Receiving presents from friends and daily is an absolute minefield-he usually throws it on the floor after he's opened it and says its horrible.
7. His food can't touch-so if we're having shepherds pie or something I have to put the things separately on his plate. There is more but literally it's just too much to mention.

Reading back, I sound pathetic as he probably does stuff most 4 year olds do. But when I'm feuding with him back to back (from the clothes he wears in the morning, to his cutlery at breakfast, then his packed lunch etc etc), it becomes so tiring. I just want him FOR ONE DAY to listen to me. But he won't, unless I raise my voice (which I hate doing). Is what he's doing normal? How can I be a better parent without losing my temper?

He looks utterly miserable sometimes that it makes me so sad :( :(

My DS is 5 now and is a control freak just like you described. He's improved since starting school though they have had a few breakouts of refusing to co-operate there but generally he's very good there and was at nursery as well.

I find with my DS we have good and bad days. When he's on a good day he is the most adorable, kind, thoughtful little boy. On a bad day he is just difficult and controlling about every single thing he can be. I find making it very clear what is a choice for him and what isn't helps and keeping very calm. He will feed off us getting angry with him and then gets very angry back. So this morning he was kicking off about going to school and refusing to get dressed - he was told that going to school was not a choice but he could choose whether he went in his school uniform or in his pyjamas. I know it sounds harsh but I've found nothing else that works when he's being non co-operative. The 'look' or the 'don't mess with me voice' or shouting do nothing and I'm a teacher so have a brilliant 'look'!

In your case I would decide where the boundaries are and stick to then regardless of the hissy fits. I wouldn't have rearranging the furniture or messing with my things, but he could choose his clothes everyday and have his cutlery.

I believe that needing so much control is not so much about testing boundaries as having anxieties and needing predictability.

Have you tried just letting him choose these things that are so important to him?

Yes you can wear that, but only if you hang that up again.
Yes you pack your lunch, this is what we've got in the fridge.
You pick your cutlery. Oh it's dirty. You give it a wash then.
Here's your dinner, no it's not touching.
Have cream that he can share - this is our cream for sharing.

Mine was like this (I think they all are). They're like sort of rituals. Rather than fighting it just let him get on with it if it's not really harming anybody. They grow out of it.

It's not really about controlling them. They sort of learn responsibility and want to help naturally by doing the right things after a while. Get him onside as your little helper.

loopy just read your link and my 10 yo is NOTHING like that

Another with a DS with ASD, and a lot of what you are saying resonates with me.

You say you have read up - do you mind me asking where? It's just that I got a very different idea of what ASD was once I read the info on that National Autistic Society website. DS at that age was exhibiting none of the commonly thought of signs of ASD:

loves playing with other children - so long as it's to his rules
good eye contact - so long as you're not talking about something that makes him anxious
loads of imaginative play - but struggles to anticipate the consequences of his actions
etc

The NAS info was much more subtle and explained the characteristics in a more nuanced way. Then I could begin to see how DS fitted them.

Your first step on an assessment is to approach your GP and ask for a referral to be assessed.

I would suggest you consider his sensory processing. Children with autism have sensory processing difficulties which is 'behind' a lot of the challenging behaviours, but you can also have sensory issues without being autistic. I can't say if your DS is or not of course, but some of the things you describe sound sensory to me. (though TBH the present thing is a bit socially gauche, even if he is only 4. My aspergers Dad still hasn't got this skill at the age of 70, lol, though he no longer actually says 'what do I want that for?' so his skills are still developing!).

For example, which clothes does he pick? Are they tight / loose / soft / old (different children have different prefences, but will usually stick to one type. For example my non-autistic son who has sensory processing issues could not tolerate anything around his waist and wore loose jogging bottoms or school trousers with the top button undone only, until he was about 7. He would only wear 'foot only' socks, couldn't tolerate anything up his shin. My autistic DS strips off his uniform as soon as he gets home and lives in a soft dressing gown whenever he can). I wonder if the creams is a smell thing - the smell like you and so are comforting (let him have an empty pot to sniff) or he likes the silky feeling on his skin (buy him his own tub of something, like vaseline intensive care or similar). The cutlery could be a weight or palm feel thing. Food touching is often about mixing textures of food (does he tolerate lumpy yoghurt? cereal with milk? mixed textures- these things make some sensory-challenged kids cringe.)

www.lanc.org.uk/related-conditions/sensory-integration-disorder-adhd-asd/

Linky...

I have a son with asd. what you described sounds familiar. not saying your son has asd but is maybe worth getting it checked out just to be on the safe side

The only thing I feel I can add is that my dd is controlling but it ebbs and flows by day mood minute. About half n half I guess.

Where yours sounds more than that. Quite a bit more. He seems to get comfort from the order. I'd look into disorders from a 'gaining knowledge and patterns' perspective. It's as possible that he isn't but you will get a feel for it as you go I'm sure.

Pink I really feel for you. These all sound like behaviours that he will grow out of. What adult would change their outfit throughout the day? Its unfair that you get all the worst of his behavior and that he is still doing these things at 4. The only advice I have is yoga and the "count to 5 technique". What happens when I get to 5? I say "right!" In a very stern manner! Surprisingly effective. Also I read this thinking my 5 year old does none of these things. Que flashback of sorrowful tears because I would not let him wear my new ring to school! So maybe all kids are like this sometimes and you just have more than your fair share ATM. I hope it gets better soon. I would let everything go that you can but if you do say no, but I would not let hissy fits alter a bean.

Sounds like the far end of 'normal' 4 year old behaviour but I wouldn't be too concerned yet, most 4 year olds will do some of these things I'm sure, some will be more like this than others. Totally agree with the poster who said choose your battles wisely - I have a 4 year old very 'wilful' ds and this was the best advice anyone gave me. Some things are definitely still non negotiable with ds but he has got better as times gone by. If school say he is is fine and have no concerns then really this sounds more like his behaviour is a direct challenge to you. I agree with black tea - sometimes we are trying to control their behaviour ourselves without realising it and they retaliate. Try taking a back seat for a while and see what happens (although obviously don't ignore rude behaviour).

A lot of it sounds like sensory issues. Find out why he's doing it and offer a way he can full fill his needs appropriately

Been going through similar with 3.5 to DD. Not read all the thread so probably repeating, but its boundary testing and he's been winning!

Take a stand, not eating with this cutlery, don't eat..... Not wearing these clothes......no clothes then (within reason, not for a trip to tesco)

You'll have a few epic screaming fits from him the first few times, but he'll get it soon enough!

Sorry should have read more - perhaps not as easy to fix as I suggested if the sensory stuff is valid (I know very little about that)

I can't thank you all enough for your advice, guidance and reassurance. I think, looking at myself, I'm quite 'routine' orientated, and I don't know if he's picking up on that.. DS is a very articulate, affectionate, funny and loving. He plays with younger sibling really well, and as I said, neither nursery or Gp's think what he's doing is out of the ordinary. But he's very meticulous with what I've mentioned.. I actually find it tough spending time with him lately cos he's so all-consuming.

Pink, your DS sounds a lot like my 4 yo DD. 'All-consuming' would be a perfect description! In her case she is most definitely NT, no doubts whatsoever. I have to be honest, I let her wear what she wants, have the cutlery she wants, rearrange her room how she wants etc etc. I do absolutely insist on her speaking to me in a polite and respectful way though - and this is where the hissy fits (or complete screaming rages) come from with her. If she screams at me 'NO! Give me the Minnie Mouse spoon' she gets nothing. No response whatsoever apart from an 'excuse me? That's not how you ask for something is it?!'. On a good day she will apologise and ask nicely and she gets the spoon. More often she will completely refuse to back down until she has had a screaming shit fit. I don't care if she wants to wear a ridiculous outfit and only eat with one particular spoon but she has to act like a reasonable human being while she does it.

It is all about control, and to be honest, I wold hand lots of the things back to him, within simple limits.
so - yes choose what you want to wear, must have trousers, jumper and sock etc, but you can choose which ones. (remove inappropriate eg short sleeved from cupboard)
Let him have 'his' cutlery - mine are 7, 9 and 12 and there is STILL a regular argument about who gets the rabbit spoon. 2 seconds to wash, no fuss.
Let him rearrange room, within sensible limits, so no rug by the door, but also, why does he want it there? is it because he doesn't like it and the door is on the way out? Then remove rug. It is his room, he wants control over his space.
Let him help make the lunch, fetch the items from fridge/cupboard/fruit bowl, so he knows what is in it.

Then you are left with things where you need him to do as you say eg not playing with your creams and presents. Pick you battles will leave you with 2 instead of 7.

One thing about this way, is that you have to accept that he will go out in mismatched clothes, odd socks, his bedroom will look a little strange etc. That is fine, he is expressing independence.

also, just to say, my ds was FOUL when he was hungry. Kicked off about complete nonsense. As he ate you could almost see the black cloud lift. We learnt that when he kicked off at meal times, we needed to herd him to the table and get food in, and then start again with whatever the problem was.