IL's, no contact, aibu & wwyd - it's long, sorry

[nocontacthelp]

Sorry I have a lot going on there in my title, I guess I am looking to know if I am being unreasonable, what you would do and if you are no contact with you in-law's how you handle it. Sorry this might be long

So I used to get on really well with the in-law's, wouldn't call alone but always got on perfectly. MIL is a piece of work, lovely woman on the surface on a really superficial level but scratch the surface or cross her in anyway and my word the woman can hold a grudge, it used to be a running joke with me and DH, I would often say memo to self never cross your Mum! She has fallen out with so many people over ridiculous things and when I say fall out I mean she is an utter evil bitch in what she says/does toward them for possibly years, or until she decides she will move on to another victim, God help you if you stand up to her and her whole family including extended family just say nothing as "it's not worth it" or "you know what she is like", the woman is not happy unless she is fighting with someone.

Anyway late 2010 I fell out with her. It was at a family event after a few drinks, she had words with dh over the behavior of another family member, I was not there at the time but when I returned I sat beside her and she absolutely slated DH to me, I said nothing, I was polite, calm, but she pushed me, she was seething, almost taunting me, over and over again, on the 5th time of her saying these awful & untrue things I called her an f'ing bitch (not my finest hour), I have never ever cursed at her (or any of the family) before and as I say I am not proud but she goaded me (I believe), it wasn't her first time doing it, she did it a year previously to me too (same stuff said re DH) and I just said nothing, so I guess it was like poking a dog with a stick, eventually they snap and I did Although I wasn't there I know what was said between her and dh was much much worse.

Anyway, we have been no contact since. She hates me, I offered to apologise for dh's sake at the time, and many times since but other family members told me not to as she is too unpredictable. And she made is clear that I was not welcome to call to her house to discuss it. My apology would only be for cursing, she did indeed act like a bitch on the night, she said awful things about dh because he is the only one that will be truthful with her and not let her do/say as she pleases, I was horrified a mother could speak about her son as she did so my apology was entirely for dh (although she would not have known this), she has not spoken to me since, she didn't speak to dh for a while either but forgave him, she has used me as a scapegoat, she said she can say what she likes to who she likes that is her right but not my right to answer back, I should keep my mouth shut. She has called me horrible names, as has spineless fil, who like the rest of the family is afraid of her ( I used to have a particularly good relationship with him so this was really hurtful). Dh brought the children to see her twice, at first she was all over dh like nothing happened, then she ignored him, it was a yo yo situation. Each time he visited I was dropped off around the corner as I wasn't welcome. I have put up with this since 2013, last year she ignored one of my dd's birthday's, she sent a gift out for one but not the other, she says she has a gift bought but told nobody and obviously I had to have the "Why do gp's not want to see me, do they know it was my birthday etc etc" off dd, poor dd was really hurt.

Anyway (if anyone is still reading, sorry), she has asked dh to call over with the dc's, dh wants to, I understand it's his family, he has recently decided that it's just not worth fighting about, he is willing to just accept her as she is, when she gets nasty to just not get sucked in and walk away. I am struggling with this, he knows this, I am struggling with letting her have contact with dc's, I think she hasn't asked after them in nearly a year, she was awful to dd on her birthday, she doesn't care about any of us, she is a negative influence my children do not need. I have told dh that I will be civil at events, I will not call to the house, he can call alone with the children if that is what he wants but and here finally is my aibu - I have said that as I am not welcome in their house, as they continue to treat me appallingly (I am referred to as "that girl" not by name etc) that she/they are not welcome in my home, he can see them, they can see the kids (this really annoys but I'll suck it up), but no way she is coming into my house to make me feel uncomfortable in my home, this would only be for events, dc's birthday really, but I said to dh that tough they will have to miss out, they/she are the ones that have dragged this out for so long, they have to accept that they can't have it all their way. Dh thinks I am being unfair, he thinks I am unfair "putting him in that situation", I think he is getting frustrated that I don't agree with his & the whole families attitude of "that's just how she is, better to say nothing than rock the boat", I think he is being unfair, this is going on since 2010, he has suddenly decided to put it behind him but he is not the scapegoat, not the one being called names, not the one being dropped off around the corner, not "that girl" who is at fault for everything, I think me saying of course have contact without me, let them see the kids, I will be civil is plenty for now and "come in to my home, to the party I am hosting, to make me feel uncomfortable" is just one step too far for me - aibu? Aibu unreasonable to say I won't go to things they host and they don't come to things we host? If they are going to treat me as they do is that really so unfair?

Are you no-contact with in-law's your partner and children see? How do you handle it?

TBH, anyone who could be a bitch about her own son shouldn't be seeing his kids imo.

They need protecting from such shit.

I think your H is very wrong to expose his children to a woman who has no respect for their mother or father. He knows it's only a matter of time before she is nasty to them or starts running him and/or you down.

YANBU at all to refuse to have her in your own home.
YANBU to not want to invite her to anything you are hosting, but that's a bit harder to police - and possibly easier to avoid her, plus you'll be leaving the place afterwards, so it won't have left a lasting taint, as it would have in your own home.
YANBU to consider letting your DH take your DC to see her; however, I do agree that if she even slightly breaks your condition about bad-mouthng you to or in the hearing of your DC, that they no longer go.

Your DH is being unreasonable to be putting this pressure on you, tbh - he might be weary, but what does he think you are? You're loving it, are you? All this bother about whether your DDs are being treated fairly (they're not) and what MIL is likely to be saying to and about your family? No, of course you're not! He needs to have a look at the effect this poisonous serpent is having on his family as a whole, not just himself.

YANBU at all, this is your home and someone who behaves like this has no place in it. FWIW I would say DCs can't see Mil and Fil as I would be concerned what they are being taught. Well done for staying so calm for all this time.
I am the DiL that MiL and Sils dislike. I put up with it for years...even letting them stay at my house when a family member died etc...kept smiling and doing eveyone's washing despite their rudeness etc. Their behaviour caused some trouble between DH and me; examples of the petty things would be when we would go to theirs and I would be the one not offered a drink, I'd walk into a room everyone would walk out etc. (Not going into the big stuff as would out me).Thankfully he eventually saw them for what they were like (they lied so many times the lies came back to haunt them and there was just no more wriggle room left for them) and he told them they had to change or stay away. MiL came into our house and screamed at me (my DCs and DH were present); DH threw her out and we were NC for 12 months with all of them. The point is this was the best thing we did, MiL realised she had to curb her behaviour or not see DCs. She has done so (still does the odd thing but minor and DH and I laugh about the minor things) and DCs have a lovely relationship with her. I can forgive and we get on fine now. (I'm sure she still joins in the hate fest with SiLs when I'm not there but that's up to them). It may be that a period of NC helps MiL see what she has to lose if she continues in this way.
DH has to back you up on this though, it is really your DH who is letting you down here. It could be that he has had to deal with this behaviour for so long that he is now 'conditioned' to accept it.
(Btw - Sils still NC...you win some you lose some....)

I'm going NC with my PIL after ears of snide comments, running me down at every opportunity, putting me in my place, telling me to stop having ambitions above what they consider my worth and general bullying. PIL have not been told yet, DH is going to need coping strategies for the fall-out. He's going to need to realise that they've done the same to him all of his life and it wasn't right.

The bullying DH tried to ignore, but as it's his family 'norm' ended up participating in. I had a moment of 'rising from the ashes' red mist anger and I'm not putting up with any of it for another minute.

Strangely enough DH is quite liking me being back to the takes-no-shit (but politely) person that he met and married.

But I will allow him to take the DDs to visit their grandparents. They are 4 and 6yo and have a good relationship with them and ask to visit both sets of grandparents. I have told DH that if the DDs come home repeating anything negative about me, then that will be the end of the visits, and he needs to protect them and defend me if necessary.

You need to get your DH to commit to a course of action.

Do you know why your DH wants contact with them? Is he in the FOG? Does he know about FOG, toxic parents etc? You say that he already stands up to them, that's the hardest part so he might just need support to sort out his feelings more fully. You said yourself that you didn't realise how many people are nc with family until you read MN.

Would he accept it if you give him a bit more information about toxic parents with no agenda other than helping him to understand his own feelings?

Can you point out the negative effects on the family members who apparently have it easy? I was thinking to do it whenever those effects are visible to you, mention it to him, he doesnt have to agree, just to have the emperor's lack of clothes quietly observed.

OP it sounds from your description like MIL has narcissistic personality disorder. Maybe google it and see if it fits?

There is no way on earth I would let DC anywhere near her. Please believe me and trust me on this. She will use them to hurt you. You know this deep down and you know she is too toxic to be around your children.

If DH will not support you on this then you have a serious problem.

I think your conditions are completely reasonable regarding no coming to your house/events and no badmouthing/undermining you in front of your DCs. Your DH needs to spell that out to your ILs. PPs have already covered this better than I could.

I just wanted to add that you also need to agree with your DH a further condition: that you pull the plug on the relationship if the is any further hint of playing favourites between your DDs. MIL obviously does it with her own DCs. Don't let her ruin the relationship between your own DCs, the mad toxic bitch.

elfycat something you said hit home with me too.

"The bullying DH tried to ignore, but as it's his family 'norm' ended up participating in. I had a moment of 'rising from the ashes' red mist anger and I'm not putting up with any of it for another minute."

"Strangely enough DH is quite liking me being back to the takes-no-shit (but politely) person that he met and married."

That's how I felt. At the start of our relationship they did manage to tone down their behaviour towards me, although there were still things they did and said that I felt were rude or wrong or not 'normal' to me.

For example they spent months pretending they had forgotten my name, and my parents names, I had something I had written published and MIL was quite rude about it, because she likes to think of herself as a writer, they tried to bully me into driving MIL 350 miles away to visit BIL and SIL, firstly by lying to me about the reason why, then by putting a lot of pressure on me, crying, shouting, turning up at my workplace and then at my parents house to make me feel guilty for upsetting MIL.

And at the start, I used to speak up and say something to them. Nothing awful really, just "no, I can't do that and I've already told you why" but that used to result in a lot of calls to the rest of the family to tell them how upset they were about me turning them down etc. And then in turn they would speak to me about PILs being too old to change, can't say no, easier just to let them have their own way etc.

And without realising it, I ended up normalising their behaviour too. It became my family norm as much as it was DH's and his siblings norm.

And once I started to do that, they just got worse and worse and I'd normalise that along with the rest of the family and accept it too. So again, they got even worse.

And it took that rising moment for me too, in my case by talking to other people about what PILs had said and done and the looks of absolute horror on peoples faces, for me to realise that that was the proper reaction to what they do.

Not "well you know what they are like" but "oh my god that's terrible", because I'd been so close to it for so long that I'd been normalising it as well.

And now I've cut contact with them, I feel like I'm more like the person I was when we married too. I'm back to being able to see their behaviour for what it is, and able to see that it's really not easier to let them have their own way all the time. I feel much better for it.

elfy - very pleased to read that you're going NC with your ILs - pretty sure I've seen a thread from you fairly recently about their appallingness! hope DH copes with it.

I agree with MinceSpy. I wouldn't allow any family member to have contact with my children if they had badmouthed me - or the children's father. Sometimes families have disagreements, but most adults learn how to express those disagreements politely, or at least how to apologise properly afterwards. I definitely wouldn't want my kids to grow up in an environment in which bullying was normalised. If the in-laws want to see the children, they must learn to apologise for unacceptable behaviour. The children have two parents, and both must be treated with respect by all family members. It's not rocket science.

Dh went NC with his mother after behavior very much like the OP's MIL. Only one of her three children speak to her and she moves from one victim to the next acting like she is the best friend they ever had only to turn when they do anything different to what she would have chosen to do or go against her recommendations demands
He did say he noticed Ds looking at him confused and unsure who to listen to one time he took him to see her (after I was already NC and she wanted nothing to do with me) He decided that day to go NC as he didn't want his child's head messed with the way she had done to him and his siblings Ds was 3 at the time.

Thank you so much for all your replies and for sharing your stories, I was out all day so just getting to log on briefly now before bed.

I will definitely be googling narcissistic personality disorder, I have never heard of it, I'm not sure if having a label of her would be a good or bad thing, probably good to help me reconcile all that's going on in my head but bad because then people would surely get worse with the brushing off her behaviour attitude

I have thought about nothing else really for the last few days, I am annoying myself with the amount of energy I am giving this woman. I have gone from thinking I am right to allow some access to the dc's to agreeing with those of you who say no way they should have no contact at all. I have to decided to say to dh (this will probably change in the next half an hour ) that they can see them on a trial basis, he does not need to tell her it's a trial, it's probably better he doesn't so she acts herself as opposed to being fake. It will only be for a few hours once a month initially anyway (for various reasons with other commitments and dh's work hours etc), my conditions are that dd1 is asked (dd2 is too young and it was dd1's birthday they ignored), if she does not want to go then that is accepted with no fuss whatsoever, if she does go then on even the slightest hint of them being treated differently then they leave and that's it they are never going back, one mention of me in any negative way then that's it they leave and the kids never go back, my house is out, this won't be an issue for a while until dd2's birthday but I want an agreement that if things are as they stand now then it's not even discussed, they are not coming end of, I don't give a flying f*ck what they or sil has to say on the subject. I will be civil, to be honest I'm not rude by nature so I would never have been anything but, we have only met once since 2013 and we both ignored each other but that was awkwardness for a brief meeting in public for the first time. She hasn't seen the dc's in about 9-10 months now, she has showed no interest so I will bend this time but if this just a short fad then she doesn't get another shot either, they are not play things she can pick up and let down as she chooses, she either shows an interest or she doesn't.

Mil is the eldest of her family and dh is exceptionally close to his aunts/uncles, more like a brother really, I think a mixture of being told by them how much he is missed, so a little well meaning pressure and feeling himself he is missing out on things is a lot to do with his change, that weariness of the whole situation, we are very close to my family so maybe that has something to do with it, neither of his parents are ill now but both are young ish and have had huge medical issues, both have had cancer, one has had two heart attacks and this is the main reason I am giving one last shot really, so dh has no regrets, not so much me as I feel so little for them but maybe I am insuring myself against feeling guilty (if that makes sense), if one of them dies tomorrow then I want to have a clear conscience, now if they feck up again, I'll stop contact and if they kick the bucket the next day then my conscience is clear. One last shot, with a lot of strings attached, in the spirit of teaching my children forgiveness. Now all I have to do is discuss it with dh if I keep the emotion out of it and am more matter of fact, with a few phrases copied from you guys then really I don't see how he can disagree with me

I personally think that if any grandparent is as poisonous as these towards one of their children or in-laws then they forfeit any right to have any contact at all with their grandchildren.

And I think your DH should stand up to them.

I think what you've written there, Nocontact, is absolutely fair enough. And I hope your DH agrees to and sticks to it.

My only concern is would your husband have the strength to just leave if necessary?

And once the "necessary" has arisen, the damage is done.

The kids have seen/heard it iyswim.

I think he will diddl he has always stood up for me up to now to be fair. He will definitely have the strength to walk out if she said anything to him/in front of the kids, I have no doubt about that. I will drum it home well enough just to be sure

Thanks Thumnbwitch & everyone else, all points have been taken on board, I agree with all of them in different ways, but for dh's sake and my conscience sake I'll give it a very restricted last chance, dh is just doing what he feels he should, it will only transpire to 2 hours a month or so, unless there is something on, I trust him to protect the kids and me while there, I'm confident on that and now I know I'm not being unreasonable saying no to coming to my home then I am happy to fight that battle