to think that a £125 fine for punching your girlfriend in the face is a joke?

[RosyAuroch]

Last year DH and I witnessed (kind of) some guy threaten to kill his girlfriend before chasing her down the street and punching her in the face.

We heard him try to kick her down in. and shout “I’m going to fucking kill you”, so we called the police (whilst we got dressed, we were in bed). Whilst we were waiting (they took about 15 minutes to arrive0, he then chased her down the street and punched her in the face according to another witness.

The police later told us that her 2 yo daughter was in the house (I think that’s why she ran out, to try and draw him away from the house/her daughter).

Twice we went to court to be witnesses, because this kind of thing is just wrong. First time it was postponed, second time (this week) he pleaded guilty and got a £125 fine. WTAF?

Isn’t what he did a bit more serious than a £125 fine? Even if you’re on benefits and £125 os a fortune, surely this is a custodial sentence, not a fine.

Also, both times we were the only witnesses to turn up.

In related news, last night our downstairs neighbour had a fight with his girlfriend at 1.30am. I heard shouting, went to the window in the spare room at the front to find the source, realised it was downstairs not outside. Could hear what was being shouted (“You fucking manipulative little cow” over and over) then loud bangs/thuds and a scream. I was still up so I stuck on some shoes, ran downstairs and banged on the door til I got an answer.

She came to the door, upset but unhurt. I asked her if she was safe and ok. She said she was, just he was very upset, had had too much to drink and she was trying to understand why he was so upset. I said “As long as you are ok?” and she said she was and thanked me. So I went back upstairs, sat in our spare room above their bedroom where the shouting was coming from, and after about 30 seconds of still raised voices it went back down to conversational level. Stayed there for about half an hour so I was sure it has calmed down

So I’m pretty convinced I did that because I now have no faith in the police or judicial system to deal with these things. A) If anything bad was happening they wouldn’t get there fast enough to stop it B) I really believed her that she was ok- I would have bundled her upstairs into our flat if I had any doubts about it.

Today I am pretty tired and shaky. I’m also thinking through whether I did the right thing. I know if I had banged on the door three times and gotten no answer I would have been back upstairs and calling the police. She answered after the second time I knocked practically hammered it down.

*kick her door in

To be fair I don't think you can blame the police, they have dealt with it and the matter put before the court. The sentencing is outwith their control.

If that's the main reason you didn't call the police for the neighbours then YABU. If they don't know about it then they can never attend.

Sadly on the whole we are not very keen on actually really punishing violent abusers however the system can very much be used to a victims advantage even if a real punishment does not happen.

And I say this as a DA specialist whose ex got a few hours comunity service and a £40 fine and had to pay BT £130 and attend a relationship skills course at probation for holding me hostage for a day beating the crap out of me cutting the phone lines trying to lock me into a room and attempting to set fire to it smashing my house up. He got fined more for saying hello to me some months later.

I think the main reason I didn't call the police was that they took so long to arrive that the girl got assaulted. It's good that the guy got charged even though the sentence was a joke, bu tit would have been better if she hadn't been assaulted at all.

My priority last night was making sure the girl downstairs was ok and getting her to safety before anything (else) happened. Then through checking that/trying to intervene it was clear it was an argument/freak out not an assault in progress, so no point calling the police.

I will make it clear that the court case and yesterday night involved totally different people.

YANBU to think the £125 fine is a joke. I agree with you on that, but it seems to be the way courts sentence these days unfortunately. I am not sure I get your logic about there being no point calling the police because they took too long to get there the last time though. That said it sounds like they weren't actually needed this time, so you made the right call.

15 minutes is not an unreasonable response time, tbh. If I read your op right, you called them after hearing him threaten her? And another witness observed the assault?

The officers could have been sent too the incident anything from immediately after you reported it until 2 minutes before they arrived. All officers could have even engaged and not able to stand down or the only available unit could have been a distance away.

I would see your point if it had been an hour etc, but 15 minutes isn't bad. I appreciate it feels a lot longer. It also depends if it was graded as a priority call or not, if it wasn't then I probably wouldn't blue light it. A priority call then yep, I would.

Did he not get any conditions, along with the fine?

Yes it sounds far too lenient for the crime committed.

You should not have knocked on your neighbours door. People have arguments, that's life. If you think someone is in danger you do not involve yourself in the middle of it potentially creating even more drama, you call the police who are trained to deal with these situations. If your neighbour was truly in an abusive relationship (and we don't know that) your interruption could have placed her in serious danger (not to mention yourself).

Domestics are extremely dangerous because of the heightened emotions involved due to their co dependent relationship. You could have both turn violent on you or the violent partner could attack you or later punish his partner severely for your interference.

Nickynacky

Are you a police officer? If so can I suggest that you might not be the most objective commentator.

To be honest, it's not about
*how long it took in minutes and whether that was reasonable or not, or

• whether it was graded as a priority call (and apart from anything else, um yes, a threat to kill someone should be graded a priority call...and we called it in more than once) *or whether it felt like a long time to me and DH waiting for the plice to arrive- it's really not about how it made me "feel"

It's about the fact that the police didn't arrive in time to prevent her being assaulted. So it's not about whether the time was reasonable, it's about whether the police were effective in preventing a girl be assaulted.

TBH, the comments you are making and your attitude are making me think that the police force are more ineffective not less. I didn't want a statement on what response times are "reasonable" but reassurance that the police force is effective.

A threat to someone's life is not a "reasonable" situation. And by police force I mean both despatch and the officers sent working together, not just the officers who arrived. So I get that the officers may only have got the call just before, but I am talking about the whole process and end result, not just what could be regarded as a reasonable response from each individual int he chain taken atomistically.

The fact that a threat to someone's life may or may not be graded a priority is totally shocking to me.

Yes I am and I mistakenly thought it might be helpful to explain the system from that side. Clearly not.

Linerunner I don't know, we were just told about the fine, that we wouldn't be needed as witnesses and told to go home. I can't find anything in the local paper or outline under court news yet.

The first time you and DH actually witnessed the assault. Sentencing guidelines are complicated and without knowing the exact charges its difficult to comment on the fairness or otherwise.

With the row in the flat below you put yourself at unnecessary risk and you could have put her a more risk when you knocked on the door. I'm sorry you have so little faith in the police but the right course of action would have been to dial 999 and report your concerns to the police. For your own sake don't get over involved.

Nickynacky It is helpful, but it's not reassuring. You are confirming my fears to me- that this is a system with different priorities than I thought.

That's not your fault, but it's not dispelling my horror either.

OP, if it reassures you it is extremely likely that there are conditions attached to the court outcome, such as his attendance at a therapeutic course for alcohol / anger problems, and checking in with probation. This is the part that means the assailant is less likely to be able to minimise his offence.

Mincespy and VivienneRuns Thanks for what you said. I think part of the reason I am asking about this is a concern in case it happens again downstairs. I know people have arguments, but for a bit this sounded like it could be more. It was the thuds then the scream that did it rather than the shouting.

So it's good to know what the best thing to do is. I know the way I reacted last night was due to how the previous situation had worked out- both at the time and in court, and I needed an honest, genuine answer on what would be best for the threatened person.

Linerunner Thanks, that does help me get the situation in context. DH and I had a discussion to that effect at the time, plus it means it is on his record and so on. But not being told about them at the time we were told about the fine made me have my doubts I think. Maybe I should look up the court feedback page and mention that it would be good to include mention of those when talking to witnesses.

Rosy I completely understand why you reacted to last nights incident in the way you did especially after the previous incident. However, you always have to consider your own safety and well being, the aggressor or even the victim in domestic situations are likely to turn on the good Samaritan.

Thank you Mincespy that is good advice. It was a total split second decision, and in the light of day I am having a bit of a deeper think about it. Thank you for understanding where I was coming from.

The decision on charging a person rests with the Crown Prosecution Service and in my experience, they often undercharge in order to secure a conviction so this person may not have been charged with Common Assault at all. The sentencing Court can only sentence within the sentencing guidelines for a particular offence other than in exceptional circumstances. It could also be the case that the victim decided not to co-operate as so often happens in domestic violence cases sadly.

OhGoveUckYourself I think you've hit the nail on the head- the victim decided not to co-operate.

The police officers who took our statement definitely left me with the impression that she was reluctant/unwilling to take it further. That was part of the reason we took being witnesses really seriously (and I am glad we did, as of 8 being called, on both occasions we were the only 2 to turn up- the guy at the witness check in desk basically told us this both times).

So what has happened is to ensure a conviction has happened, the perpetrator has a record/another entry on his record and if something happens again it looks like a pattern and gets taken more seriously.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense in the circumstances and makes me feel like at least something has been achieved by this.

Well at the very least the defendant now has a criminal conviction (he may already have previous convictions of course) and if any other assaults occur with the same victim it will help build a case for a more punitive sentence next time. Actually the sentencing for Common Assault ranges from a Conditional Discharge to a custodial sentence so a fine is within the range even if it doesn't sound anywhere near as harsh as it should be.
Don't feel bad about getting involved, I am sure the victim appreciates it and the fact that were independent witnesses instead of the 'he said/she said again helps secure a conviction and was probably the reason why the defendant was advised to enter a guilty plea. It is also the case that any person entering a guilty plea does get some reduction on their sentence .

OhGoveUckYourself Thanks, it good to know that our turning up could have been what swung the balance there, it crossed my mind that was the case but it's good to hear it from someone else, makes it seem more real.

On the one hand, I get how this works on a rational level. But from a gut feeling level I'm still a bit uneasy he got off so lightly. In a "what does this say about our society?" kind of way.

Where did you receive your information from OP? I would be surprised if that was the sentence for this offence.

Here is the sentencing guideline the Magistrates would have followed:

sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/Assault_definitive_guideline_-_Crown_Court.pdf

His offence was likely to be common assault.

Summerbreezer I am sure that this was his sentence. Whilst we were waiting to give evidence a court employee called out the case name and told us that we were free to go, as the accused had entered a guilty plea and had received a £125 fine.

It was in Scotland btw, so a Sheriff not Magistrates.