To think voting for the Green Party is a wasted vote?

[Rebecca2014]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30829222

For one thing you will be giving a greater chance of the Tories and UKIP winning the election due to the fact votes are being taken from Labour and the Lib Dems. You are not taking votes from UKIP, you are taking votes from Labour the party more likely to win the election.

Second my family live in Brighton and the Green Party have been awful there, the rubbish collections...the roads, do not talk about what they done for the motorist in that town.

If you are voting for the Greens, why???

Dawndonnaagain

A mock vote in sixth form last week ...

All very well, but of absolutely no value whatsoever if the students then go on to not vote.

FWIW my son took part in mock elections at school - ISTR a Green bias there too.

The real problem here is the voting system, first past the post, which means that votes for the party who didn't win in your consistency are 'wasted'.

I am voting green because their policies are closest to what I believe in. Saying that, if my constituency was closely tied between two other parties, I might be tempted to vote for the 'least worst' option.

MaliceInWinterWonderland78

The point I was making was not about whether Tories help certain people or not. What I'm saying is that we have to live within our means. We should help vulnerable groups, I absolutely accept that. We should not borrow (outside of a single political cycle) to do it.

I agree actually. I'm not a "till the pips squeeze" socialist by any means. But I think we could find a much fairer way to move wealth around in society than we presently do. We already have enough money. It's just in the wrong places.

Did you know that one fifth of Britain is still owned by descendants of the 190 nobles that came over with William the Conqueror ? So anyone who claims we've ever fairly divided our wealth is sorely misguided ....

You've got new generations of voters every year with different political opinions

"It's a turn around jump shot, it's everybody jump start, every generatiom throws a hero up the pop charts ..."

Fair point Lurking, particularly as it's harder to vote here, long distances to polling stations etc.

Dawndonnaagain

... it's harder to vote here, long distances to polling stations etc.

If only you could vote by post !

Seriously, like with so many other things, peoples attitudes are shaped by their parents. Politically minded parents tend to raise politically minded children. Sadly this seems to produce a permanent background bias towards the right of the spectrum, as the wealthy tend to be very crafty at hanging onto their wealth (how do you think the Norman descendants kept all that land from upthread ? By arranging marriages to "keep it in the family").

This also tends to a point where - certainly teenagers - there's a "family tradition of voting". When I was 14, an English teacher (it was a debate) asked us how we would vote, if we could, and suggested that if she were to ask our parents how they voted, it would be a 1:1 correlation. It was in my case (Tory).

I think there is an endemic problem with youth voting, and I would welcome anyones experiences from outside the UK. My feeling is because the political cycle is about 5 years (in fact it definitely is now ) then teenagers/adolescents really don't get a chance to see the system inaction (yes, I deliberately didn't put a space in ). Taking my DS as an example. 19 in May, so able to vote. However last time there was an election he was 14. So how can he appreciate the change that 2010 made, compared to what's on offer in 2015. Especially when he hears from his parents about how bad it was 1974-79, 1979-1983, 1983-1987,1987-1992,1992-1997,1997-2001,2001-2005.

All he knows is 2005-2010 - then only through the prism of his parents.

"What's the point ?" he asks. Has voting ever delivered anything positive ? And it's hard to answer with quantity, or quality.

FWIW my big issues I can recall since I could first vote in a general election (1987) are (in no particular order)

1. Independence of BoE
2. Introduction of Human Rights Act
3. National Minimum Wage
4. Irish peace process

which are far outweighed by the illegal war in Iraq alone.

When I was 11, a teacher asked a group of us how our parents were going to vote. Cheeky if you think about it, but anyway (1983 election).

I said Tory and Labour. How's that she (and a few of the other kids) asked.

Erm because my dad will vote Tory and my mum will vote Labour. They could not get their heads around the fact that my mum would not vote the same as my dad!

And I know people say they won't vote because they don't know who to vote for, a plague on all their houses etc. I get that. But you can be sure that the horrible parties will get their voters out so if you have moderate views, then PLEASE go out and vote for a moderate party. Otherwise you let the extremist parties in.

And I know people say they won't vote because they don't know who to vote for ...

The winning party will take this as tacit support.

Anyone who says they aren't voting needs to be challenged "so you're happy with the way the country is run then ?"

*Sacking someone for drinking a can of drink on the job (thread from yesterday - made me so upset for the lady concerned?)

You mean the thread where someone says that they stole a can of drink from a room/minibar in a hotel where they worked?*

No, I mean the thread where she said she drank it, told her boss she'd done it, offered to pay for it and was sacked regardless. That is not theft. And if she'd been there for over 2 years she'd not have been sacked because no ET in the land would have supported the decision to take someone's livelihood away for that reason especially given that staff were allowed to drink tea and coffee from the rooms.

The reason I link that to the Tories is that before they came to power, the cut-off was one year. They made it two to make it easier for employer to get rid of people without having to go through fair procedures - it was virtually the first thing they did. And they've increased the barriers to bringing an ET claim by imposing ridiculous fees. The only reason we have any rights left is because of the EU rights that they can't (currently) get rid of. Hence why, if we have a referendum, be careful of what you wish for.

I don't know if the NMW was in their manifesto but will accept that it was.

I'm not completely anti-Tory - there are some good people in the party on its left fringes like Sarah Wollaston and Ruth Davidson. But they have no influence and it's all running scared of UKIP.

The idea of a Tory/SNP coalition is an interesting one and not entirely unwelcome except that they'd probably start doing on about having another referendum (and by the way, if that had been carried out on a FPTP basis the no vote would have been much stronger - it just shows how bad the FPTP system is).

Postal votes, there are very, very few teens that arrange such things. There are not enough adults that arrange such things. If people did 'turnout' would be so much greater.

I do get what you are saying about time though, I've been voting since the mid seventies, I've had a long time to develop my thoughts, I have not gone the way of my parents, something the press has enjoyed in the past!
My children will not be going the same way as me, they are a mixed bunch and we've dragged them up to make their own choices, I am aware that is a rare situation though.

I really can't see a Tory SNP coalition !

It's quite sobering to think that if "we're all the same", how different Scotland is. Tory MPs are to all intents and purposes extinct.

FWIW all parties have some good ideas. The problem is usually the good ideas come with shedloads of ideological baggage, so we get lumbered with nonsense like the bedroom tax.

A parliament where no two single parties can form a majority might lead to more sensible debate, and more evidence based decisions and policies.

Dawndonnaagain

You can lead a horse to water ...

(Tactful mode ) not sure of your generation. But it's worth reflecting on what successive generations have seen and done. It's not my parents that lived through WW2 (well, they did, but not having any involvement - that was their parents. My Grandparents). No, they grew up postwar. My Mum not knowing what a banana looked like till the 50s. Slightly behind the 60s counterculture. So we grew up in the 70s and 80s. My first memories of politics are discussing why it was news that Mrs Thatcher was leader of the Conservative party (charmingly, I recall at the time not understanding why a woman being leader was news. I genuinely thought woman had the same opportunities as men. Lot of female teachers I guess).

So the younger generation of today have very little in common with us when we were that age. CND ? Who cares. Anti Nazi league ? Do what ? more tellingly, if we assume the internet started in 1993, this will be the first "pure nethead" generation to vote. Who knows what they make of news and the world. For nearly 30 years it was a daily paper, and the 9 o'clock news for me.

I miss the nine o' clock news, I really do!

I hit primary school in 1962! I honestly wish my first experience of politics had been as late as Thatcher, my parents however, were really rather well known in political circles, so I was aware from a very young age.

Lurking

But I think we could find a much fairer way to move wealth around in society than we presently do.

I agree, though if it were easy, it would have been done ages ago. One of the things I think we could do is abolish IHT altogether and have the recipient pay tax on any bequest (or the value of) at their marginal rate. That way we'd maintain the progressive element we currently have within the tax system, whilst putting to bed the complaint about taxing taxed income - after all, my plumber is required to pay tax on the money I pay him (from my taxed income).

In fact, as a Conservative voter, that 's the one policy area (IHT) that I fundamentally disagree with. Strangely enough though it's those who look to bequeath fairly modest estates that are (in my experience) are most supportive of the policy. I know a few very wealthy guys (self made) and they're not taking any action to put assets beyond HMRC and have made only very very modest provision for their kids.

complaint about taxing taxed income - after all, my plumber is required to pay tax on the money I pay him (from my taxed income).

But that's because the income is new to your plumber, it's his income.

the same as if you work in a shop a customer gives you money, Value added tax is paid on that money, the remained forms the companies income, which is taxed, they use it to pay your wages that are taxed... and you use it to buy stuff (with VAT added, so on and so fourth).

IHT is a good idea,
We shouldn't expect to just get stuff because our parents or grand parents worked hard (their success doesn't mean that we don't have to.)
also, we're about the first generation now that would actually get something because our parents or grand parents worked.

most people with a lot of money only have said money because at some point they forcibly took it from others or were friends with the king (who forcibly took stuff for them)

I will be voting Green. Ifeveryone who wanted to vote green, but thought it a wasted vote, did so they would do pretty well I think.
I used to be a labour voter, then voted lib dem last time. Can't be any worse than them!

But that's because the income is new to your plumber, it's his income.

Yes, and if I inherit from my parents, that income will be new to me.

I don't believe in wasted votes. A vote is only wasted if you spoil the ballot paper. What I don't understand are morons who vote for who they think will win (why??) and people who bother to schlep down to the polling station to vote for so-and-so because 'they'll get in anyway, sigh'.

I'm thinking of voting Green, simply because they're the only party left who seem to have proper values and want to make things in the country better rather than their primary interest being lining theirs and their friends pockets. It's interesting to hear that the stories of them fucking Brighton up seem to be merely spin in the press.

I voted Lib Dem last time. That won't be happening again. Fool me once... I might have considered Labour except for the fact that I have absolutely no faith in Miliband as a potential leader of the country. And I hate Tories/UKIP/BNP. So, probably Green.

Yes, and if I inherit from my parents, that income will be new to me.
but you didn't work for or earn that income that you inherited.

it's a special situation, and has special tax arrangements.

Yes, I know, but what I'm saying is that inherited income should be treated EXACTLY the same way as earned income. That was, we retain a small degree of progressivness. As things currently stand, a welathy person inherits 'tax-free' (as the duty is paid by the estate).

The only expemption I'd maintain is between spouses.

that way we retain a small degree..............

GatoradeMeBitch

I'm thinking of voting Green, simply because they're the only party left who seem to have proper values and want to make things in the country better rather than their primary interest being lining theirs and their friends pockets

give them two years in power . You know what they say about power ....

I'll vote Green, or possibly Independant, depending on who stands. It's such a shame because our Labour MP is genuinely lovely, and works very hard, but I simply cannot bring myself to vote Labour at all. Our constituency is a bit odd, so I think the Greens and definitely the Independant would have a chance at least, even though we're staunch Old Labour working class types!

Excuse me, Lurking, those of us in our early thirties remember Thatcher and had computers from Reception - I had my first proper email address aged 11. Pretty much all the "research" I can remember from school was internet searches.

That's Generation Y for you.