To think that talking about punching people is outwith the Pope's remit?

[ArsenicFaceCream]

I initially thought I'd dreamt this one.

I suppose it means we can mark the Vatican down as not with the staunch pro-free speech lobby, which in itself is a return to something more familiar. But still...

I don't think you should insult another person's religion. If you are speaking as a Protestant living in the UK, then perhaps you have never had your religion mocked in a way that is intended (subconsciously or not) to undermine you, but it happens constantly to people of minority religions living here in the UK, so presumably it happens elsewhere too.

It becomes a bit more tricky with Islam because while any normal Muslim (or Catholic, or Jew) can distinguish between fully intended insults/slights etc and uninformed comments (imagery of Mohammed etc.), fundamentalists go out of their way to pretend to take offence at every little thing, whether it was intended as a slight or not (not just Muslim fundamentalists do this, I suppose - fundamentalist in general seem to be a bit touchy).

The Pope was joking, and it came off a bit badly in translation, but his point is valid.

NotYou. I speak as a buddhist and my religion is openly mocked pretty much everywhere, in fact, usually when people find out I'm a buddhist they make some sort of joke, I'm well aware what it's like to have your religion mocked.

Do you know what I do? I laugh.

This thread is almost a parallel universe to the one I was on last night, where people were pretty much advocating that freedom of speech meant you had the right to say anything you wanted, and mock peoples faith. No wonder the world is in this mess, when people dont understand that with Freedom of speech there comes a personal responsibility to be respectful. It goes both ways.

gingerdodger: "So if someone insults our mother's the reaction may be a punch (the expression on his face when he says this suggests this was a jokey analogy)."

Well, I agree he was probably joking. But he was asked about the Charlie Hebdo murders - surely a joke isn't really the appropriate response here? Couldn't he have treated it with some seriousness?

My mother is of a minority religion in Norway, where people roll their eyes and mock the strictness of the more conservative branch of the faith- like not having curtains, not wearing lipstick, not dance, not go to the cinema, not listen to any radio other than mass, and the only recording you listen to are recorded hymns and readings. I usually just think people mocking faith is a bit ignorant and narrow minded.

Hurr1cane - Buddhists probably don't have the sort of history in Europe that some other religions do, in fairness.

When people in the UK mock Catholics there is a lot of baggage that goes along with that, so no, I don't laugh. Equally Jews might be forgiven for adopting a rather chilly stance if somebody mocks them, and Muslims have come in for a lot of flack here long before terrorism came into it, although that was more obviously related to nation (Pakistan) than God at that point.

Maybe not, you don't have to laugh, but you don't have to shoot people either.

I can't get past 'archbishop of terrorism'

I just said this on a different thread, by ridiculing religion, you are not necessarily offending millions of people of that faith (I suspect most people are rational when their Faith is mocked), but waving a Red Flag at the Terrorist Bull!

hackmum can see your point that jokes in the face of what happened last week seems insensitive, however, given that the whole purpose of Charlie Hebdo is to make serious points using the vehicle of humour maybe this was entirely appropriate.

I listened to the speech in the Italian and thought that surely I'd misinterpreted something. So I went onto the Catholic News Agency website where they have the full (translated) transcript and this is the relevant section:

"It's true that you cannot react violently. But, if Dr. Gasbarri, my great friend, says something against my mother, he can expect a punch. It's normal. It's normal. You cannot provoke, you cannot insult the faith of others, you cannot make fun of the faith. "

To me, the most shocking part was the Pope actually acting out the giving of a punch, to demonstrate the violent response which he says is "normal".

I disagree that we should accept this as a normal response. If I criticised someone else's mother or something else that they held dear, I would expect them to be cross with me; to disagree with me; to argue with me; to storm off; to not want to talk to me etc - I wouldn't expect them to physically punch me. And I'm pretty shocked that the Pope seems to think that that is an understandable response.

Quint I did raise an amused eyebrow at the idea of someone criticising a person who shuts herself off from every non-religious influence in the world for being narrow-minded and ignorant. Glass houses!

I should have left a paragraph before my last sentence!

My mum was not like that, we changed our curtains with every season, and she wore lipstick. She married my agnostic dad, who had great respect for Lao Tse and Kung Fu Tse! But people not knowing her would easily tar her with the same brush as the more conservative branch, and mock the Laestadian faith, saying stuff like "I bet you lot only drink medicinal vodka, and watch movies in secret on your tv hidden in the loft" wink wink. nudge nudge. I grew up with my mum, dad, my Catholic convert sister, my pentecostal grandma, and my atheist uncle.

Can you see the danger in a religious group being protected from ridicule? The manipulation of populations by religious leaders is age old. The individual or the press (probably annoying, possibly obnoxious) needs protecting by the state and it's laws from the ire of those who firmly believe they have the authority of an almighty being.

Laws should also be there to stop anyone harassing an individual for their religious belief.

Slagging off a religion may be socially unacceptable (I see the Pope's point here) but shouldn't be legally unacceptable.

I am amazed nobody has gone with 'Pope threatens to bash the bishop in public' headline.

Zinedine Zidane didn't get away with it back in the day, and his mother featured in the insult...

I had expected more from the Pope, frankly.

I just said this on a different thread, by ridiculing religion, you are not necessarily offending millions of people of that faith (I suspect most people are rational when their Faith is mocked), but waving a Red Flag at the Terrorist Bull!

Extremely good point. And terrorists are the only people responding violently and insisting their response is 'normal'.

They played the clip of it on the news. He was speaking in Italian. To me, the 'you insult my mother and you can expect a punch' looks a lot harsher written down - spoken, it seemed almost like a joke, and he just said it to illustrate the point that people get annoyed when you insult them. He also did a 'punch' action towards his aide, who was smiling. I think it's an Italian thing, where people are more likely to do actions with their hands. (I know he's not Italian but he lives there and some of this must rub off when your'e speaking with Italians all the time.) So I don't think that he is advocating punching people who insult you.

Well, yes Miranda - on that level, it's comedy, all the more so for being the Pope speaking (although it messed with my sense of reality this morning)

But when you consider he is discussing the murder of journalists by terrorists, is it still funny!?

"They insulted their prophet, they should expect a bloody nose"

He's the Pope, not a gangster.

GangsterPope makes me chuckle!

Can you see the danger in a religious group being protected from ridicule? The manipulation of populations by religious leaders is age old. The individual or the press (probably annoying, possibly obnoxious) needs protecting by the state and it's laws from the ire of those who firmly believe they have the authority of an almighty being.

So many implications.

Have the Scientologists got their much desired religion ststus anywhere yet?

GangsterPope makes me chuckle!

I'm going to end up a reluctant cartoonist myself aren't I?