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To think if N.Korea released a film worldwide about assassinating Obama, America would not see it as an expression of 'free speech'

75 replies

CumberCookie · 20/12/2014 12:34

Just that really.

Kin Jong-un is obviously a maniac but that doesn't mean that it is ok to produce a crass comedy film about the assassination of a leader of state. Can you imagine the fall out if a state made a comedy about killing Obama? Or perhaps Cameron or the Queen? Its really poor taste I think to make a film like that, no matter how abhorrent the politics of the individual.

OP posts:
Pagwatch · 20/12/2014 21:10

well most of us have seen it by now.

The American film industry would market a comedy about the plotted assassination of the us president if it a) was funny and B) likely to make lots of money.

To suggest America wouldn't tolerate it is rubbish.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 20/12/2014 21:55

I don't think it is a misunderstanding of free speech as it is an understanding of how patriotism works in the US - and that many loud parts of the US are known for how badly they react when anyone calls them out or does anything remotely anti-their-version-of-the-US in their eyes (I'm from the US, I remember the whole freedom fries things). The US media particularly is notoriously hypocritical about this - we may hate each other and some hate the president, but a nonUSian (or just someone not cis White of means even within the US) is different and would be lambasted as they already are.

The Interview is a disgusting idea, Sony greenlighted because previous anti-North Korea movies have made money and the problems they have caused - a rise in anti-East Asian attacks in Western countries and anti-Korean ones in Japan which already has a horrible relationship with Korea, as well as increased aggression from North Korea against the South- aren't a concern for Sony. It shows a great lack of care about anyone or anything but cash which has been made clear in many of the other hacked Sony emails though none were really that surprising, even the racist ones.

Paraphrasing a friend, one day North Korea will be free and the concentration camp survivors will see that so many, especially the powerful, were more concerned about the idiosyncrasies of their oppressors than the well being of the oppressed. I'm personally glad this movie is going away except for how it's being turned into a symbol off free speech and censorship when so many other movies have been scrapped or not released because they would have bad repercussions without becoming such symbols.

CaffeLatteIceCream · 20/12/2014 22:02

You keep calling it a "crass comedy". Interesting use of words given that you haven't actually seen it.

Yes, America probably would regard it as a free speech issue.

raltheraffe · 20/12/2014 22:06

I do not believe for one second N Korea are behind this hacking Sony.

It is either a false flag to promote cyber security or a marketing ploy over what critics feel is a below average film.

LePetitMarseillais · 20/12/2014 22:07

Considering that none of the people of said country ever see any Western films let alone the one in question yabu.

CaffeLatteIceCream · 20/12/2014 22:11

And, yes, you have the right to be offended if you'd like to be. But you don't have the right not to be offended. Your "offence" is your business, nothing to do with anyone else. Free speech is ALL about putting up with people saying things that we don't particularly enjoy hearing...and it's the most important freedom any of us have. Please don't be so dismissive of it, and perpetuate the myth that it's "not a licence to be a dick". Yes it is....that's precisely what it is....a licence to be a dick and not have your head removed from your body at dawn.

Oh, and the person talking about the "Dutch" cartoons.....they were Danish. And they were very necessary.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/12/2014 22:19

I don't believe it's a marketing ploy and I'm surprised people think it is. This has been hugely, hugely embarrassing to Sony - the hacked emails have really alienated their very good friends. Cinemas have refused to show it so they had no choice to back down over that means of distributing it at least.

I don't think America would have been hugely offended by such a film, no.

I think we need to treat tyrants like what they are, pathetic joke figures, not monsters. However, the film was made by Judd Aptow so I imagine it's nothing more than crass (ie stupid) and not very funny if any of his last films are anything to go by.

Alisvolatpropiis · 20/12/2014 22:20

Caffe

People do have the right to not be offended actually. It's why religious hate speakers run into issues, why Julian Blanc was not given a visa to work in the UK. Usually the right relates to a protected characteristic of some kind.

MonstrousRatbag · 20/12/2014 22:20

Can you imagine the fall out if a state made a comedy about killing Obama?

A state making such a film is quite different from a company doing it.

Sony Pictures, an independent Japanese-owned (I think) company, has a made a comedy. They would do the same about a US leader or the Queen, etc etc. If the US State Department had made it, you'd have an analogy. But they didn't.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the North Korean government is being unreasonable to protest about it. Just that threatening (via whicever hackers they hired) to take terrorist action against cinemas in America because of a film is completely unacceptable.

whitecandles · 20/12/2014 22:28

I agree with AgentCooper . The situation there is not funny. I don't think people get how scary it is there, it's just like ha ha ha, let's laugh at the crazy Kim family. A north Korean refugee gave a speech recently where she said that she felt the constant jokes about the regime made too much light of the situation.

BoomBoomsCousin · 20/12/2014 23:38

Spork in what way do you think the Freedom Fries thing was anything to do with limiting speech? It was the opposite - the US didn't like what France had decided and said so, using their freedom of speech, to indicate that through (somewhat childish I thought) name changing (Freedom fries etc.), and more straight forward expressions of disappointment and disgust. That would be free speech in action - where both sides say what they want, even though the other side doesn't like it.

The closest many in the US come to wanting to hobble free speech in relation to something they find offensive is campaigning to get flag burning made a crime. But though campaigns garner support, they never hold, because free speech, even when it's offensive to the country, is a strong part of the constitution and culture of the US.

PhaedraIsMyName · 21/12/2014 00:31

Agree the movie was in incredibly bad taste and it was quite unnecessary. A bit like the Dutch cartoonist insulting Muhammed. Such unnecessary hassle and aggro.

And who gets to decide it was "quite
unecessary"?

I was appalled at the Dutch cartoonist incident for entirely different reasons from you.

Chippednailvarnish · 21/12/2014 00:49

I was appalled at the Dutch cartoonist incident for entirely different reasons from you

Couldn't agree more.

Primafacie · 21/12/2014 01:13

I have as much right to be offended by something as other people have not to be. That is freedom of speech is it not?

No, it is most emphatically not, and you are deeply mistaken if you think you have a right to be protected from offence.

Freedom of speech is a key tenet of democracy. It protects not the right to express popular opinions, but the right to express deeply unpopular, uncomfortable or abhorrent ideas. This is accepted as a key component of democracy in that it tackles abuse, prevents demagoguery, and generally prevents dictatorial ideologies from taking hold.

No one has a right to be protected against what they believe is morally offensive. All you can do about it, is feel offended in your living room. Your feelings are in the private domain. No one cares if you are offended.

AnyHemisphere · 21/12/2014 01:36

'Agree the movie was in incredibly bad taste and it was quite unnecessary. A bit like the Dutch cartoonist insulting Muhammed. Such unnecessary hassle and aggro.'

Gosh this is so depressing to read.

writtenguarantee · 21/12/2014 02:26

Everyone has the right to be offended by anything. And everyone else has the right to say they don't care.

Coyoacan · 21/12/2014 02:28

I can't help thinking that this a way of promoting the film. Like "Satanic Verses" all kinds of people bought and either didn't read it or couldn't understand it.

wobblyweebles · 21/12/2014 04:01

I'm always surprised by how far free speech actually is protected in America, having moved here from the UK.

MidniteScribbler · 21/12/2014 05:24

I personally think the whole thing was unnecessary. Joking about assassinating any actual living person isn't funny, and I would say that regardless of if they were talking about the North Korean leader, Obama, the Queen, or any other person in the world. That said, I'm not offended by it, but I don't think that it's funny, and that is also in part because I am no fan of the two major stars of this film, so probably wouldn't have gone to see it anyway. Surely if this film was as funny as they claim it is, then it would have been just as funny if it were about the fictional leader of some made up country.

PhaedraIsMyName · 21/12/2014 06:37

Just pointing out the cartoons were published in Denmark, not the Netherlands.

Possibly the poster who thought they were unnecessary was thinking of the Dutch film - maker Theo van Gogh who was murdered for making a film which some found offensive.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29

CumberCookie · 21/12/2014 10:33

Primafacie I am not asking to be PROTECTED from it!!!! I am simply saying I find it offensive! I am allowed to have an opinion on it, THAT IS MY RIGHT. I am not saying it should be banned because I find it offensive, I agree this would be a dangerous thing to do!

OK maybe I am being UR and from what other posters have said I'm probably wrong in the idea that most Americans would find the depiction of a murder plot of their president in a comedy film inoffensive.

I never said it should be censored or banned. I just find it hard to believe that it would be seen as an acceptable subject matter if it was about any other head of state.

writtenguarantee sums it up pretty well:
"Everyone has the right to be offended by anything. And everyone else has the right to say they don't care."

I repeat I do not want the thing banned.

OP posts:
TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 21/12/2014 10:47

BoomBooomCousin - I was pointing out how ridiculous very large, loud parts of the US could be about other countries just disagreeing with them to the point that France disagreeing about going to war meant people changed the name of food - people in the US have called to go to war over less than people calling for death of a President -- and have been involved in many deadly conflicts for far smaller slights.

The burning flag issue is another ballpark by a society that from early childhood one is expected to fall in line with the land of freedom BS thing and uses allegiance to the flag to do so and actually ignores official protocols of said flag - the way to properly dispose of a US flag that is not up to standard is by burning it (and flying it upside down is a distress call which is why so many are doing so in the current batch of protests). Much like popular fictional dystopia societies, the image of superior freedoms - and the ingraining of that image from a young age by using the few who have it as the image they spread to the world - is far more important than the reality where the few have it at the cost of most.

I would argue that the US protects freedom of speech for some, those few in line with power groups, not all. The recent countrywide protests and the official reaction to them speak very loudly about who is allowed to say what. The idea that freedom of speech is very ingrained in US culture to me is a sad joke because the US has a very long history of government agencies getting rid of anyone who speaks out against them and the power dynamics they support who get too much traction. ([http://www.thekingcenter.org/assassination-conspiracy-trial See 1999 when the US government was found guilty for taking part in the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr]] and the massive files the various US intelligence agencies had on him and how many ways they tried to get rid of him - and that was someone who was peacefully protesting against the US government and the White supremacy they support - and that's before we get into how many worldwide conflicts the US had been part of because they disagreed with the people's choices in those countries). And it has been noted that many areas known for active protest groups have funding to their schools and facilities cut by the US government to the point of closure - Chicago is particularly hurting because of this right now.

I personally feel I have far more freedom of speech in the UK as a mixed race person than I ever had in the States and I've found it is far more ingrained here for most people that speaking out doesn't mean I would be at fault if I came to harm by others. At least I feel free to peacefully protest or be a witness without being killed or film the police without being imprisoned. Sure, the many KKK groups (which some US presidents were members of...) and Westboro church have freedom of speech in the US, but the rest of us? I wouldn't risk it, I won't even risk going back at this point. The EDL in my area openly use their free speech, freedom to assemble, and can be very intimidating for me to the point we're saving up to move, but I've yet to ever feel that the system or most of the public would support them if they actually harmed someone.

But I don't think the cancelling of The Interview is a freedom of speech issue and find it sad that it is becoming a symbol of it (I also agree that it is doubtful that North Korea was responsible). Many many movies have been pulled over time because of concerns of people reactions - after 9/11 there were several in production and done movies that were pulled because their theme ran too close - because bad reactions are bad for business. Sony is already smarting after so many of their disgusting, racist and sexist emails were released to the public and pulling a racist movie when others on a similar vein were linked to incited violence just makes sense for them when they will be scrambling to improve their image. This is about business, image and money, this movie just isn't worth it to Sony after the losses this hacking has caused for them, taking the hit for one film and boosting their more financially promising films that are more likely to do well internationally just makes good business sense at this point.

AgentCooper · 21/12/2014 13:22

Does anyone think North Korea is a joke?

I would argue that lots of people do, Phaedra. All the articles you see on sites like Vice about Kim Jong Un's haircut etc. Rogen and Franco clearly think it's ripe for comic treatment.

Cutleryhands · 21/12/2014 14:11

Hold on a minute there must be a hundred assassinate the president movies and whislt they are all made in america I think if Jong Um or whatever his name is decided to make one the americans, aswell as the rest of the world would either find it hilarious or pay no attention whatsoever ?

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 21/12/2014 14:50

At North Korea's current global power level, it probably would be shrugged off. Just as the North Korean regime continues to shrug off or use to rattle sabres at South Korea the multiple US TV shows and movies that mock Kim Jong-Un or his family and/or use North Korea as the big threat. That's why most people think it is doubtful that North Korea has anything to do with this - the regime likes using this kind of thing as fodder to prove how horrid/'jealous'/violent the West is, one more that reduces them to a comedy and will likely encourage the anti-defector administration of South Korea does nothing to them. The only people who are getting anything out of this being pulled as it has is the US for looking like the defender of freedom again with maybe a small image boost to Sony and more of their energy and finances towards projects more likely to bring a bigger profit (and likely to get a bigger profit off of it later with the controversy).

It seems appropriate to include this link to a charity raising much needed funds to help North Korean refugees who must travel thousands of miles to get safe countries when trying to leave and are often exploited and violently harmed on the way.