To complain about this GP? Long, don't want to drip feed.

[OriginalGreenGiant]

Ds1 (6) has had a minor sore throat for a few days but yesterday had woken up crying in pain, couldn't swallow, yawn or talk. I had a look and his tonsils were huge, felt his glands in his neck and they were like hard round marbles and he went 'ow' when I touched them. Felt a bit warm but no actual temperature at that point. So I managed to get a morning appointment in open surgery time and took him to see GP.

We waited over an hour for an appointment, in which time I could feel and see ds's temperature going up. He was tired and a bit lethargic and you could feel the heat radiating off him. So I stripped his top off and put him next to the window.

Anyway...in we went. The GP didn't look at ds at all when we entered, just maintained eye contact with me and asked his symptoms, then picked up the thing (light...magnifier?) and looked in ds's ears and throat. It's hard to explain how 'off' this seemed in words, but IMO you can tell quite a bit from how a child looks, so it seemed very odd that she didn't even look at him, let alone ask him anything.

So, she pronounced his throat red and ears fine. She then ran her hands lightly over his neck and said 'glands are normal' and took his temperature (in the ear) and declared it 36.8 and fine. Then asked me what treatment i was hoping for from then on .

At this point I could feel the warmth still radiating from ds so asked if she could test his temperature again. She gave me an indulgent smile and did...looked surprised and a bit shamefaced and went 'Oh it's actually 39! Sorry!'

I asked her about his glands and said to me they seemed very pronounced and painful. She felt them again a bit more firmly, ds1 visibly winced but she again said they were completely normal.

She then said that she understood I was probably hoping for antibiotics, but...and gave me a two minute lecture about the differences between viral and bacterial. I tried to politely interrupt (I'm not an idiot, I know the difference and had given no indication I was 'looking for' anti b's) but she was on a roll with her speech so on she went.

She then turned to her computer and brought up google, saying she would check if antibiotics were needed. She googled 'fever pain score', clicked on the first result and filled in a form. She said to me 'You can actually do this from home, to see if anti b's are necessary but obviously I don't mind completing it for you'. Well gee, thanks

She turned to ds (and just to point out, this was the first time in over 5 minutes in the room that she had looked ds in the face or spoken to him) and asked him 'So, would you say your throat pain is moderate or severe?'. Ds is a bright 6 year old but fgs, he's 6. He stared at her, obviously not understanding so she repeated it to him word for word. So I answered that it had seemed severe.

Anyway, this form came up with the result that antib's were recommended. So she completed a prescription after poring through some text book for a full two minutes to check dosage. And out we went.

It all just seemed so wrong. Other than the moderate/severe question, she didn't actually look at ds or speak to him/question him at ALL. I'm not a Doctor, but considering the painful marbles that are protruding from ds1's neck, I'm pretty certain they wouldn't be described as 'normal'. Plus add in the temperature mistake, and google telling her whether to prescribe or not.

I said to dh I feel like complaining. I know that Doctors are probably sick of people traipsing in kids with a sniffle at the moment, but ds clearly had more than that and I don't feel that she really examined or diagnosed him at all.

Dh thinks I'm overreacting. He is of the 'Aw come on, she's probably newly qualified or having a bad day' opinion...tbh I couldn't give a fuck and neither of those warrant not doing your job properly IMO.

AIBU?

[Celticlass2]

Wow, my post has been deleted. Cant't believe some of the things the medics on here have been allowed to say, and my post gets deleted!

[RedToothBrush]

The genuine answer is because acting aggressively is often out of fear.

If someone feels attacked by a doctors attitude it creates a certain atmosphere of tension and can make people act overly defensively, which may be aggressive.

I am NOT saying it is right in anyway, however doctors should have an understanding of conflict resolution and a good understanding of anxiety and how it can manifest itself as part of their job. Its not an excuse for patients to be abusive, however it about recognising how vulnerable patients can feel and how much power and influence doctors have. Its an unusual dynamic in a relationship which exists in few situations.

It is therefore poor practice to behave in this way as a doctor - as much for your own safety - as well as in the best interests of the patient.

I don't think its disgraceful to point out how damaging certain comments, even anonymously on an internet forum, can be to the profession and to trust in the profession. Its harmful. So if anyone wants to call me name for it, feel free.

After having spent years dealing personally with the damage its done me, then yes it does speak of my medical history. I understand how damaging the poor attitude of doctors can be only too well. But I am also aware that I am unlikely to be the only personal ever to have suffered significant problems as the result of a doctor's attitude. I have never been aggressive to HCP, but I can well see where it might come from and how doctors need to be more aware of how they act has a profound effect on their patients reactions and well being.

Strangely enough, when I complained about the poor manner of my midwife, and what actions she took which made me feel threatened and what she could have done not to provoke the situation, the managers that dealt with my complaint acknowledged how good management of situations can prevent them from happening in the first place, that my complaint was very valid and that it was for the benefit of the midwife who had acted badly too because if she had done the same to someone else the outcome could have been very different and a lot worse for her and her patient.


HTH.

[waitingforwombat]

It is more than possible she was a trainee - a GP registrar. They have been qualified doctors for at least 4 years, and do see patients unsupervised. They are learning, and will often try out different consultation styles and different ways of explaining things - sometimes they work well, and sometimes they fail terribly!! From modern GP training point of view NOT asking you what you wanted to do and NOT showing you stuff online is seen as poor practice. I get that she didn't do it very slickly, but thats what she is being encouraged to do. I can see what she was trying to do in explaining about antibiotics and showing you the fever/pain score so that you would be empowered to be able to use it yourself in the future - these are all part of patient education and preventing future attendances (even if your child needed antibiotics this time, it doesn't mean a bit of education isn't helpful for the future!). I understand that maybe it wasn't done well/didn't come across how it was meant to, but that is the reasoning behind it. She should probably have spoken to your son directly, but the reality is that most 6 year olds won't say anything at all to a doctor, and if she was running super late she might have just been trying to be efficient. Her consultation skills seem to need a bit of work, but they aren't completely off!

Its also never unreasonable to look up doses of medications, particularly for children.

I understand that you feel that she didn't examine your child effectively, but thermometers do sometimes give random readings. Even if he didn't get antibiotics the treatment would still have been fine - antibiotics only reduce the duration of the illness by about 12 hours and you need to treat about 3000 people with antbiotics to prevent one quinsy!

[pinkisthenewpink]

Btw I think macdoodle (and others) are well within their rights to post on any public forum they wish. It's uncomfortable reading for us from the other side as it gives you a different perspective to your GP's life. But I think it's quite valuable to hear. I have to say once I was waiting for over an hour with my fractious reflux-y baby and me at complete end of tether to see my GP. She apologised and I was a bit humph. I came on here and read about reasons why GPs might be late. Made my inconvenience feel insignificant. I think these forums are good at giving both sides a view and an opportunity to empathise with the other side.

[Alpacacino]

pink Your level-headedness is very soothing.

[XmasTimeMammariesandWine]

You can't see NPs at all surgeries. You could at my old one, not my current one.

[TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet]

Just to clarify for those who may need it: this is a link to our talk guidelines

There's actually a link to them just above the message box on every post you type.

In brief, MN's raison d'être is to make lives easier
Our number one rule? No personal attacks.
HTH

[Sirzy]

GPs may be busy and overstetched but that doesn't excuse not listening to patients and seemingly pre-judging conditions before having seen the patient.

[Ohfourfoxache]

The difference is, Celtic, that none of the medics on here have launched personal attacks

The more I think about it, the more I think it's a problem of perception.

There is a widespread view that complaints are bad things; they're not. They are good opportunities to improve a service, or communication, or support staff more effectively.

As a service manager I would damn well want to know about this. And it's not about an opportunity to give a member of staff a bollocking. It's about trying to improve a service, make it more efficient, improve communication with patients, and make sure that a member of my team is as well supported as possible.

If the gp was rude, then why was that? Was she having a shit morning? Do we need to look at appointment scheduling to make things as easy as possible? Do we simply need to make sure that doctors are adequately rehydrated during surgery?

So instead of approaching this as an exercise in whinging and making life even harder for someone who already has a pretty shit time of it, why can't we use it as an opportunity to MAKE THINGS BETTER?

[RedToothBrush]

There are ways to do it in a professional manner though. Whenever you use your status in that way to make a point it is important to consider whether it might influence someone.

Suggesting its acceptable to behave in a certain way because you are under pressure and we should make allowances for it, isn't ok.

That is an issue to sort out professionally. Patients still have a right to a basic level of respect regardless of working conditions. By encouraging patients to complain it may back up problems with working conditions and put pressure on NHS managers to actually get their fingers out their asses.

You don't take your grievances out on your customers in other professions, so why is it acceptable in the NHS when there is an additional issue of am upturned balance of power and additional vulnerabilities.

[YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually]

My regular GP has actually come out to see me at home when I asked for a telephone consultation as I couldn't physically make it to the surgery. I wouldn't have dreamt of requesting a home visit and actually felt quite guilty, but she is an fabulous doctor and said she wanted to set her mind at rest as well as mine by seeing me. This is just an example of her outstanding care.

Ironically, as I said before, she checks dosages online or via book, and her manner can come across as brusque as she is very direct and to the point. She always asks me "what do you feel you need", I have a long term illness which I self manage a lot so think this is fine but can see how someone who is defensive could misread that. She is honest and tells me like it is, I appreciate this as think this is how it should be.

She is the best HCP I ever had, and I have had a lot. Ironically she could be the GP is wanting to complain about!

[Ohfourfoxache]

RTB - if patients should complain, why the fuck shouldn't medics/HCPs/anyone else who works in the NHS complain?

Don't forget, patients see a minute fraction of what goes on in the health service. Perhaps if people knew a bit more about WHY things are the way there are there would be more pressure for change.

[RedToothBrush]

Ohfourfoxache its the manner in which they do it and whether they use their status and how they try and influence others. Its all about tone and use of emotive language.

You can say the same things in a way that a) isn't confrontational b) doesn't have the potential to undermine doctor patient relationships.

Anything that makes people feel like they are being judged for their behaviour/questions etc by a HCP is a real no no for example.

So if people read a post and are going "fucking hell I'm glad your not my GP" that's a pretty big clue that you've overstepped the mark.

[Ohfourfoxache]

Yes, it is overstepping the mark.

It's called a personal attack.

[Celticlass2]

I haven't launched personal attacks on anybody. The way patients have been talked about on here by some who hold positions of authority, and are essentially dealing with vulnerable people on a daily basis is an absolute disgrace

[Celticlass2]

Oh, and my GP is wonderful by the way. Having read some of the stuff on here it seems I am lucky to have her..

[raltheraffe]

what is trollhunting?

[Ohfourfoxache]

May I refer you to Olivia's post of 20:52.

It appears that not everyone agrees with you on that front, Celtic.

[Ohfourfoxache]

Don't think anyone has been troll hunting ralt

the posts were deleted for personal attacks.

[Celticlass2]

ohfour she that shouts the loudest and all that..

[Ohfourfoxache]

Eh?

Who's shouting?

Sorry, I may be being thick but I don't understand your last post Celtic?

[Alpacacino]

Quiets which medical professional on here suggested a couple of doses of Ibuprofen?!?

With regard to the complaints of GP/dentist: Of course it's understandable that everyone needs to complain about their jobs, but people who work for the general welfare of society (nurses, teachers, doctors, dentists, politicians etc) making a point how awful the people who rely on them are?!?
It's a difference between stating that certain behaviours are challenging and make it difficult to provide an efficient service, but to roundly condemn patients as such? Nice ones are few and far between? That really undermines the trust patients need to have.
If the fault lies in the system, then that should be the subject of debate.

I can't imagine that HCPs would be at the mercy of unreasonable patients filing unreasonable complaints, either.

What are the standards here?