To think that people don't become financially successful by being nice?

[superstarheartbreaker]

I'm too nice. As a result I have not been that successful in my career due to many " too nice" mistakes in my personal life etc. When watching the apprentice it is quite clear that the most shrewd and belligerent win.

I have many talents but I wasn't motivated by money in my youth and wasn't what I would call a shrewd operator. I'm more shrewd now but it's a bit late sadly.

I work in education and I've been bullied in a few teaching jobs although I am very happy and not bullied in my ta role. I earn a pittance though.

I went to a private school and most of the richer kids were obnoxious and entitled ( not all though).Aibu that in order to be rich you have to be fairly ruthless? Indeed in order to stay in any job you have to be good at nasty politics?

The Apprentice is just about the worst example you can use, to be honest. They are merely a fairly hapless bunch who happen to have swallowed a dictionary of Management Bollocks Speak.

I think you have to qualify what "nice" means too. As well as your interpretation of "success". Since it isn't automatically necessary to be despicable in order to succeed. I know many people who remain delightful despite material success. I also know that when I had a fairly Big Job, I didn't turn into an Evil Witch either. I did meet wankers along the way but they were wankers when they were at the bottom of the career ladder and just got more wankerish as they climbed it. Most didn't get anywhere near as far up as they thought they deserved. Precisely because they were wankers.

However, some people may mistake being focussed, articulate and clear about their objectives as, in some way being "not nice". Whereas in reality, success (however that's being measured) rarely comes by accident and without hard work.

What about Elton John then?

He's really really rich and seems really really nice.

That blows your theory out of the water!

Of course the very, very rich have to be absolute cunts to get there in the main - but thankfully theres very few of them (people wise obviously there's very few, but money wise they have all of it)

There aren't many oligarchs who got rich without child labour in poorer countries or the aristocracy in this country without slavery.

I would have agreed with you early in my career, but now, as it nears it's end I think actually these things sort themselves out over time

Yes, people who are prepared to trample over others might get up the ladder quicker to begin with but then they often find that what goes around really does come around. It's true it's all relative though, the absurdly rich have I suspect always been up to no good somewhere along the line.

I've heard lots about Elton John that doesn't make him nice at all!

Ultimately, I really believe being nice makes you happier though.

Well I've been focussing on my goal of being a teacher but I gave been bullied by management in several Teaching jobs despite being graded good/ outstanding. If I can't succeed with a teachers, fairly low paid job then what chance do I have of being comfortable?

In my last job I was told I work hard but was still bullied out as my face didn't fit.

My ex colleague told me that she liked me as I was friendly but to be careful as not everyone is the same and might take advantage of my friendly ness. I'm not talking about over sharing in the staff room or being too nice to students either.

Am also fed up with being stabbed in the back but so far so good in new role.

Actually i disagree about the Apprentice. The nasty ones make good tv but it is always the nice ones that actually win in the end.

I guess talent has a lot to do with being mega successful and/ or driven or exploitative.

Have you MET many people who work in the city?

I know a few, but bizarre as it may sound to you, not everyone who is properly wealthy works in the city.

There are stacks of properly wealthy people who don't work in the city!

I didn't suggest at all that all wealthy people work in the city - but the idea that people who are "truly wealthy" are all possessed of great confidence and gentility and don't feel the need to compete or show off is just rubbish, I'm afraid and if you've spent any time with seriously wealthy people who work in the financial sector you couldn't possibly think that.

I have relatives, acquaintances and friends who work in the financial sector in the city and are very nice despite making a lot of money.

I'm sure you don't actually believe all wealthy people work in the city, but that is how you came across, and if you're going to quote me it might be worth reading the (ime) that I included to make the point that I was talking about 'in my experience.

I'm aware that not all very wealthy people will be confident, and some will feel the need to show off, but again, that hasn't been my experience of the very wealthy people I've known. Even the few I know that work in the city.

Perhaps you could open your mind a bit and accept that your experience might not be exactly the same as mine, so there's really no need for the

I'm self-employed and know a lot of business owners through networking. Without fail, the lovely people are the most successful. I love The Apprentice as they are so daft and immature.

I'm pretty successful at what I do and believe a lot of that is because I'm not afraid to ask for help and don't bullshit. I attended what could be a very important pitch for me with a prospect who queried how much I could take on. I told him that I worked to a certain level but knew a more experienced marketer I'd pass work up to if it was beyond my abilities. I'm not modest, I'm honest.

But, I see plenty of people with chips on their shoulder who make assumptions. My networking group can seem a little cliquey. I joined, knowing nobody and was open and friendly and was welcomed. But I've seen defensive types reject others (before they have chance to reject them). Total self-sabotage.

Have you MET many people who work in the city?
Yes. One or two boorish, arrogant prats and quite a lot of very decent people.

DH is bloody successful at what he does; he is also 'nice': he tells junior staff to sod off home if they feel ill, or offers to come in early if somebody has to be there at the crack of dawn.

The wealthiest person I know is a really kind, delightful man. Admittedly he inherited a lot of it, but he was also good at his own job.

It is sad that so many people think business is about ripping customers off and being unfair with your staff. Sometimes you have to be firm with staff and customers as there are members of staff and some customers who do try and rip you off as well.

Business really does not have to be that way though. Of all the businesses we all deal with and work for its clear that most of us are pretty happy with that relationship.

I used to work as an oil trader which frankly given the money involved attracts some of the biggest sharks on the planet but the firm I worked with made a point of being extremely honest in all its dealings with customers and was very decent to its staff.

Its a shame the City has degenerated the way it has. I have friends who work there and worked there and they would not be friends if they were not nice people.

The City needs to take a good hard look at itself and get back to 'my word is my bond'.

sort of prisoners dilemma thing isnt it.

If people all co-operate and share then we all do well, there's enough to go round and no one is left out.
Some people will see an opportunity to be selfish and act always out of self interest....they are the freeloaders who profit from the fact that most of us most of the time co-operate and share

If everyone was selfish it'd all just be a big bunfight.

Obviously that's an oversimplification, but I think my point stands?

Meant to post 'On the flip side my father is seriously loaded and he is a complete c**t'

Difference between DH and father is that my DH didn't have an end goal of being wealthy so didn't step on people, threaten people or sell his family down the river, he just kept his head down, did his job and gained wealth and respect.

I think you make a valid point Suzanne, but the problem is, not everyone will cooperate and not everyone will share. That includes people that don't have money as well as those that do. People with more to gain can be selfish, and people with nothing to lose can choose not to put in the effort. Both sides will than complain that the other should be doing more.

^Have you MET many people who work in the city?
Yes. One or two boorish, arrogant prats and quite a lot of very decent people.^

But not being openly boorish or arrogant doesn't make everyone else decent.

I've worked in the city and most people who had any success were thoroughly ruthless, careerist and capitalist; and most, whilst they might be polished and pleasant dinner companions, either held opinions that would make your eyes water to hear them (when they occasionally expressed them in unguarded moments), or might pay lip service to political correctness and corporate social responsibility, but in practice believed thoroughly in the kind of neoliberalist market economy that deems some people of less intrinsic value the others.

And pretty much ALL of them were out to buy as much property as possible and pay as little tax as they could get away with. They were happy to speculate in commodities that left other, more vulnerable people poorly off, and either did not connect what they did to the real material effects on over people; or, worse, they absolutely DID but thought of it as fair game, and indeed the whole business of making money as precisely that, just a game - it wasn't their problem if children in Bangladesh died because they'd been speculating in rice futures, or if the only black people in the office were the cleaners.

not everyone will cooperate and not everyone will share
very true Woo
however it is surely possible to organize things in such a way as to maximize sharing/co-operation and minimize greed/corruption.

Things may never be perfect but improvements are acheivable

Gosh, it's almost as though wealthy people aren't a homogenous group you can make sweeping statements about!

yabu it depends how you define financially successful. Personally, I don't earn a 6 figure salary but am happy with what I have.

YABU - my DH earns lots and lots and he is lovely! Like lots of people we know and in our families, he worked hard at school, hard at uni and now gets up everyday, goes into the city, puts in a 14 hour day , doesnt stop for lunch and comes home having earnt a very healthy amount.

I have friends who are very rich (millions) and successful. They're truly lovely people, just very clever, driven and willing to take a risk.