To be shocked at the ageism on here tonight

[drudgetrudy]

AIBU to be shocked at the terms used to refer to older people tonight.
We've had "old duffers", "old biddies" "old dears with nothing better to do" and this isn't a TAAT-its been on more than one thread.

If any other group were referred to in generalised and negative terms like this people would be going nuts.
People are people and come in many varieties over all age ranges.
Seriously pissed off tonight.

[ilovesooty]

Obviously those of us who want to ensure this continues to be highlighted can do our bit as Justine said by reporting each and every instance causing concern. I then want HQ to respond and intervene on threads reminding posters of the Everyday Ageism campaign, just as they do with This is My Child. They would have to actively commit to promoting the campaign first though as I said up thread.

[GarlicGiftsAndGlitter]

Justine was the first person to talk about banning words

Very good point. I'm sorry I got a bit dragged into it. Mumsnet doesn't ban words, it expects intelligently respectful use of words.

And everything Sooty said, of course.

[Hakluyt]

Yes, I was bothered by the "banning words" thing. Worryingly like the "you can't say anything these days- it's PC gorn mad" meme.

[Mintyy]

" Mintyy
I feel completely unenlightened by your explanation Justine.
Justine Mumsnet
Oh, sorry about that Mintyy."

Apology accepted, Justine.

However, I see I'm not the only one who feels it was an inadequate/confusing response.

[ilovesooty]

It seems quite reasonable to me to ask HQ to make the same commitment to addressing ageism as that offered to tackling disabilism.

[ilovesooty]

And Mintyy you certainly weren't alone. FWIW I thought Justine's apology to you was pretty dismissive.

[Mintyy]

Yes "dismissive" ... that's almost the word .

[crumblebumblebee]

I agree that banning words is problematic but I'm not sure that's what people on this thread were asking. We had a thread a week or so ago discussing the history of the word 'mongol', so having a straight out ban of the word on the forums would hinder discussion.

[JustineMumsnet]

Morning all.
So having slept on it, here's where I'm at.

I will drop a line to our publishers of The Mumsnet Rules - if it's ever reprinted [optimistic] we'll change the description to busybodies as garlic suggested.

Sometimes, you only really get a sense of whether/how offensive or inappropriate things are via discussion - and this has been an enlightening one. As said we, nor did Bloomsbury, didn't think biddies was derogatory, and the chapter evidenced our intention not to be derogatory. But plenty of you disagree so that's something we need to take into account and I apologise for any upset caused.

With regard to site moderation, as said, we are simply not getting many reports of ageism, it's not that we are choosing not to intervene. If you think Mumsnet's ageist you can change it, by reporting instances of it.

Same with campaigns - we don't sit there at the beginning of each year, stroking our chins and wondering what our next campaign is, it comes from users. If a large number feel very strongly about a campaign about ageism we'd be more than happy to help coordinate something. Seems like we have a bit of a consensus here, so we're very happy to canvass opinion more widely about that on site and will do so in the next few weeks.

Thanks for all the input.

[Hakluyt]

"As said we, nor did Bloomsbury, didn't think biddies was derogatory"

Says it all, really.

[Samcro]

seeing as the "this is my child" was agist (no over 18's)
lets hope any campaign about this will be better.

[ilovesooty]

Thank you Justine. That's encouraging. I hope a campaign will be a reality and it will be supported.
Could I ask for your thoughts on HQ publishing, possibly on a banner, a specific commitment to all the protected characteristics of the Equality Act and making it clear that the commitment is incorporated in the T&C s?

[GarlicGiftsAndGlitter]

That is encouraging, Justine Good to hear you'll canvass opinion, too! (Though I'm girding my loins for endless repetitions of the posts on this thread - I'll be ready!)

[ilovesooty]

Yes Hak it does, and it's pretty appalling, but I think we can only really look at going forward. I hope at the very least HQ will look at its legal and moral obligations in terms of E&D. If that wording was not thought to be derogatory I'd wonder in all seriousness if some comporate training might be a good indicated.

[ilovesooty]

Sorry - might be indicated.

[ginnycreeper5]

'I'm getting old^
My opinions are as strong as ever. I'm interested in politics, I'm interested in books (my favourite mumsnet site), I am interested that the next generation have a good life.
I am not a fucking busybody on a bus ( even a kind and well-intentioned one).
Beginning to loose my temper now.

Well said!
And so say all of us.

[ginnycreeper5]

Some of the MIL & PIL threads are truly awful and just littered with ageist comments and assumptions.

I agree.
Don't these women realize that one day they will more than likely BE one of those MIL's, that they so despise - who are so old and interfering.
And they will be OLD.

[Hakluyt]

Can I remind people that the following-
"An elderly lady came up and cooed at my daughter. Two minutes later the woman had tapped my husband on the shoulder and shoved a tenner into his hand saying 'that's for the baby mind, don't go spending it on beer'. Still makes me smile to this day (actually making me cry a little bit now, fecking pregnancy hormones).”

Was given as an example of positive portrayal of old people.

There's rather a mountain to climb here...

[ilovesooty]

Yes, I think that chapter needs more than retitling.

[ginnycreeper5]

It's up to us to report posts where there is ageism. And MN has agreed to change the wording, if the book is ever republished.
So I suppose that's a start.

[ilovesooty]

Especially as Justine still says the chapter evidenced our intention not to be derogatory

[drudgetrudy]

Thank-you for your response Justine-I think that's fair and its up to us now to point this out where we see it.

[ginnycreeper5]

I look upon MN as a Learning Curve.

I, myself, have used language when I first joined (mainly through bad habits) that I wouldn't dream of using now!

So I think, as with all things, it will be a slow (hopefully steady) progress when it comes to stamping out ageism.
But it's not something that can be fixed overnight.

It's a case of leading by example.
And MN can do the leading.
And maybe if enough of us stop using any ageist language, the message will gradually trickle through.

[GarlicGiftsAndGlitter]

Yep, me too Ginny. Mumsnet's improved me

[ilovesooty]

And MN can do the leading

Hopefully. If they have a full understanding of the seriousness of the issue and are prepared to commit to it. I hope everyone who's contributed so passionately to this thread will keep that momentum going.