More women have to accept they can't be the default primary carer?

[Babycham1979]

Inspired by another thread, I'd like to ask others what you think about the myth (as I see it) that women can 'have it all'.

I know many educated, professional women who have still insisted on being their children's primary carer as soon as they're born. The fathers' preference has always come second and they invariably end-up acting as the primary earner (often against their wishes).

It seems as if many women are asking for the impossible in expecting to fill very senior positions in business and politics, but simultaneously assuming motherhood to have primacy over fatherhood.

Parental leave is almost equally available now; women out-earn men up until child-bearing age (29); and more girls are graduating (esp in law and medicine) than men. Now is surely the time for the sisterhood to actively encourage men to be the primary carers of their children? At least half the guys and dads that I know would love this option, yet it's not been made available to any of them.

Are we really saying that women can do anything in the public sphere as well as men, but men can't parent as well as women? Either we're equal or we're not.

Only when we have real parity at home can we have parity in the workplace, no?

Interesting OP.

When I go back to work after mat leave, DP will be doing all nursery pick ups/drop offs because he works more flexible hours than I do.

But it took me a good few months into my mat leave before I even realised him doing it was an option. Before then I'd been sweating about how I was going to get DD to nursery as their doors opened and then get to work on time. And how late I'd have to pick her up because I wouldn't be able to leave work before a certain time, etc, etc.

Then the penny dropped... Why don't I just let DP do it?

And that was all me. Nothing DP said or did made me think that. It was entirely my, supposedly feminist, brain trying to make nursery pick ups and drops offs on an unworkable schedule entirely my problem.

If I'm honest, I still feel a bit like I've 'failed'. I felt guilty for putting it on DP - even though he agreed to do it without question. Despite the fact that DD is as much his child as mine.

This stuff is so ingrained. It's crazy.

The feminist discourse is not about having it all though OP it is about women having choices.

I agree with what I think you're saying OP. I am lucky that I think my DH and I are equal parents, we have both reduced our hours. I say lucky because I think what really set the pattern for this was the fact that I was really quite unwell after the birth of dc1 - in fact, the only thing I could do for about a month was breastfeed. So there was never any of the 'mother becomes the expert, father has to catch up' that I saw with friends at the same time. Who went on to enjoy that expert role, didn't easily relinquish it, and whose partners stepped back as well, partly a lack of confidence, partly because it was easier to focus on the 'provider' role.

I do think there are bigger barriers to women's career progression, especially to senior roles, but I have certainly seen what you describe played out.

You raise a totally valid point OP. In many ways, society still makes it more difficult for the father to be primary carer, though thankfully things are changing and the introduction of shared parental leave is a good example. It will be interesting to see how many men take it up (or how many women let them!)

It all starts in the home though, and to the greatest extent we get the partnership we choose. Personally I was very happy to be the one who dropped to part time working while our children were tiny; though if DH had had very strong feelings about doing so too, we'd have tried to accommodate that. I wouldn't ever have felt ok about giving up work completely though for many reasons, not least because I wouldn't want the pressure of being sole earner myself, and I wanted our children to have a good balance of both parents rather than one of them 24/7 and the other on burn out. After all, it's the children who matter most- not our own wants as parents

DP is the primary carer in our set up. I earn three times what he can. When he was made redundant when i was 6 months pg it made sense for him to be SAHD when i went back to work and not look for another FT job. Whilst i was on mat leave we split the baby care (probably about 60/40 but he did some freelancing too), even the feeding (i can't breastfeed, due to a mastectomy, making me an inferior parent to other women, according to clawhands).

I realise we aren't typical. But we also aren't quite as unusual as we might have been 20 years ago. I don't feel like i'm "giving anything up" by not being the primary carer, i provide in other ways. DP was initally worried thar he wasn't financially contributing, but i've always been very clear that the VALUE of his contribution surpasses and defies financial quantification, and he says he's happy. (We discussed when we made the decision that he must say if he gets sick of it, and we can look at another option).

I know this is one instance, not a statistic, but the our very existence means that some women ARE willing not to be primary carer in the face of increasing equality in the work place. (A battle far from won, i know)

I think your OP is full of assumptions based on your personal experience which maybe why you had some hostile responses (from people who don't recognise what you're describing).

Also, no girls graduate from medicine or law. Only women. In a discussion about feminism I don't think its pedantic to mention this.

Surely, if me want to be equal parents as you say, the onus is on them to ask and fight for it. DP was only to happy to let me stay home with the kids - I'm the one having to fight for some equality so I can carry on with my career rather than cook and clean for the next 20 years. What's stopping these wannabe house husbands doing the same?

If can't have kids as career, why can dp? Equality really should work both ways.

DH and I split the parental leave (it's been possible since 2011) and I went back when DS was 7 months.

It's tough but doable, we both work the same hours and split the parenting and home jobs pretty evenly; many people I know do the same (though didn't do the leave) which makes me question the 'women are wired for it' argument.

Interestingly, some of DH's ffiends who are having second kids are considering taking additional paternity leave this time around.

Incidentally, I breastfed for 17 months.

This is interesting as I was very ill after DD was born, other than breast feeding I really physically struggled to hold her and had to have help.

DH did all the bathing and carrying as I wasn't capable. DH also cooks most nights. I think we are pretty much equal parents.

I don't think DH is inferior to me in any way with parenting, in fact, when DD is upset he's far better at talking to her and helping her. I often think all this "women are naturally nurturing" stuff is crap. I am primary contact for school - but then I work from home. When it comes to taking DD to classes or sports DH does it. We are fortunate - I work from home part time and DH works very locally so is home by 5pm. That makes the big difference, most couples we know, the man isn't home till 8pm.

I also happen to be the main wager earner! Always have been, we did discuss DH stopping work but we found such a good nursery he didn't - and he took her to and from nursery so when she was small DH saw more of her than I did!

If women have a thing in their head that only they can care for their child, it is sad, for themselves and their partner - because he misses out on being an equal parent. DD and DH chat on the way to and from tennis and they are very close. I think it's great.

That's a really good point chunky

I think many women would absolutely fucking LOVE no to be the primary carer.

Is this news?

By the way, it doesn't have to be one of the other, why can't things be equal?

Think its a middle class thing to be honest. Primary carer?? What's that all about. In our house we both work shifts around one another. We share school runs, cooking, mad dash to buy a forgotton item of uniform.
Same with most of my circle , dads do just about as much as the mums. Ok maybe not quite as much. But to call one the primary carer is odd.

My DP is primary carer and primary earner. His work is significantly better paid, but also flexible. We are not typical.

OP could you also please come up with a solution where the women doesn't have to be the default gestational carer then?

Not having to be pregnant and give birth would be GREAT IMO

BF was OK. I bet a lot of women would ditch that one as well though!

We're very much 50/50. Earn roughly the same and both do compressed hours.

DH works shifts and our nursery is also very flexible. So we have a mixture of us individually looking after DD, nursery, family days and a little help from my mum.

It really works for us and I find I enjoy work more this way too!

I wouldn't want to share maternity leave though. I bf dd till she was one and I went back to work. That time was so precious to me.

Actually, reading a pp's point about primary carer (regardless of gender) getting a larger share of custody if parents split up, I remembered other friends who I met after their divorce. Dad had taken a step back from his career to be primary carer, mum had big career, and post divorce that balance remained.

These wives who absolutely won't agree to shared care (where there isn't an overriding financial reason making it nigh on impossible, as in my case where my ex earned more in a day than I could earn in a week and in any case would have hated to stay home) are just as unreasonable as husbands who won't let their little woman get a job outside the home (I didn't want to, as it happened, but would have shared care if he'd wanted to do so).

I'm not sure the issue is society as much as individuals taking refuge in tradition rather than having open-minded conversations about what will make both parents happy.

I think every family has to work out what will work best for them. Since having ds1 9 years ago I have been the primary carer (9 months and 12 months maternity leave for ds1 and ds2, and part time work when ds1 was small) and so has dh (I now work full time and he works part time / freelance.)

From the moment they were born I was the best person to be the primary carer since I breastfed for 6 months plus. Now, it is more practical for us as a family for me to work full time as I have the higher paid job, better pension and holiday entitlement.

Sometimes I wish it were different, but ultimately, it works. I know many women who have given up their career and find themselves at a loss when they do want to return to the workplace, so in that sense I am at an advantage.

So YANBU. But it wouldn't suit everyone and nor should it.

Isn't the average age women have their first child around 29 so a lot of them will be effected by the gender pay gap? Also the man is often older so will be earning more.

Saying that I was earning more and it didn't even occur to me I wouldn't be the one who went part time.

Do you know a lot of men who want to be primary carer, Babycham? Because I don't. And I don't know many women who insist on being primary carer. It usually just works out that way because of materniy leave or earning potential etc.

Most guys I know are more than happy to ditch their wives with the drudgery of caring for under-3s. My own DH is taking a long paternity leave due to the birth of our DC2 and even he, a very hands-on parent, freely admits that work keeps him sane and he is finding life as a SAHD, even for just 6 weeks to be lonely and depressing. The reality is that taking care of young children is hard, unpaid work so most men are more than happy to leave it to women.

I won't go so far as to say that men (in significant enough numbers) want to be the default primary carer but most men I think would like to spend a decent amount of time with their children which is sometimes denied to them because they are required to be primary breadwinners by their wives who want to SAHM or take a very pt job.

Like I said, Jackie, maybe it's peculiar to my demographic group (35, professional, London) but, yes, at least half the guys I know would genius Ely like to go part time at the very least. A significant proportion would rather sack off work all together, but they're denied that choice because society tells us all that it's not theirs to make.

I know there are SAHD families, and I admire them for doing what suits them. So many of us are, however, products of conventional attitudes and prejudices. And that includes the 'oppressed' as much as the 'oppressors'.