to not pay my neighbour's £1,000 insurance excess?

[washerwoman2]

Apologies for being so long! I live in a flat and the block has a caretaker. In March he left me a note saying the flat downstairs had reported a water leak and could I check it was my washing machine. I immediately went to their flat to ask about it. They were away for the weekend but I left a note with my mobile number on it. Over the course of a few tests - we never met - the tenant (the owner's son in law) told me it had been leaking for a few weeks but 'they had been away a lot'. Once the slow drip leak was established as coming from my washing machine it was fixed within 24 hours. I had not had a new machine installed so don't know why it started leaking.

2 months later the management co send me an email telling me the owner of the flat is making an insurance claim and I will be liable for the excess. Size of claim not mentioned. The owner of the flat was cc'd but did not respond when I said the tenant was at fault for not reporting it to me promptly and I would not pay it.

4 months later the owner sends an email including his bank details and asking for £1k. His insurance claim was for a whole new kitchen so approx 9k. I respond by saying I though the matter was closed as he had not contacted me for 4 months, am surprised at size of claim, can I see the damage and copies of docs including proof the excess is 1k. 4 weeks go by and I hear nothing. Then we meet at a residents meeting - even though he doesn't live here he owns 3 flats. His 2 children live in one each and he rents the third out.

He very nicely asks for £1k. I mention my email and he claims he never received it. I give him a hard copy and 4 days later he sends me the docs. As it's now 7 months since the leak, the damage has been repaired and I can't see it. My (suspicious) opinion is that some of the docs look like they have been edited and may not be the official docs. The amount paid out by the insurance co has been blacked out but is slightly legible and is more than he told me they had paid. The letter does say the excess is £1k. The emails he has sent are now full of comments about the flat being uninhabitable, the tenants had to live with mould, he has had considerable expense (which is a lie - he has paid £1k but is telling me it is more and the damaged kitchen was 18 years old so nearing end of useful life) and setting a seven day deadline to pay and if I don't pay we will enter a legal phase and it will end up costing me more.

AIBU to not pay on the grounds that I was not negligent (if anyone was negligent it's his son in law who knew there was a leak and did nothing), and he has not been open, timely and honest re communication etc. As I understand it, the law says he would have to prove I was negligent to take me to court and I don't think he could prove that.

One of our trees fell over in a storm and ripped up the neighbours drive, fence and front gate. The insurance companies both agreed it was his claim, not ours to repair the damage to his property. We did offer to pay his excess, in the spirit of good neighbour relations (we certainly didn't have to), but in the end he only asked us for £30.

If it does end up in the small claims court, I would like to see what the insurance company paid him and what he paid for the kitchen, because I bet he paid less than he claimed and the £1000 would be pure profit.

If they had informed you promptly, the damage would have only been a small repair on the ceiling and maybe (at a stretch, but unlikely) a new worktop. NOT a whole new kitchen!!!!

I agree a lot of this advice seems wrong I'm afraid. In a block of flats you should have a communal buildings insurance policy which you pay for through your service charges. I have never heard of a situation where you would have separate policies.

Hmm. I'm afraid I have to disagree with a lot of this advice.

As you're in a flat I presume you're subject to a block policy to which you all contribute and hold jointly. Excesses for these can be high due to the number of inter-flat leak claims.

My general stance (as a managing agent) is that the flat which caused the damage should pay the excess for the claim, so in this case, you. However, this is generally unenforceable (check your lease!) and subject to a certain amount of goodwill and responsibility on the side of the owners. To some extent it's not about the value of the claim or the size of the excess, it's about the amount of damage you could reasonably be held liable for. A slow dripping leak wouldn't usually cause over £1k of damage so i'd suggest that you offer him what the cost would have been to fix it if it had been reported to you immediately - maybe £500?

Having said all of that, if he rang me complaining, my suggestion to him would be that he reverts to small claims court. So be aware that this may be his next step.

Good luck. (Also - black mould is usually as s result of a lifestyle issue; condensation in particular. It sounds like the kitchen wasn't vented properly and condensation was forming, not that your leak was causing it. I'm surprised the insurance paid out on that).

I hope you get some good advice from your insurers legal advisers. Good luck.

Good job I said 'usually' then eh? Unfortunately lots of people don't actually read their policies and get upset when something isn't as they thought.

Good for you on reading your policy, now there won't be any surprises for you.

Have you had a legal letter addressed to you arrive through the post directly or has it all been passed on by him as a third party? I grow suspicious at the point where he gives you his bank details. If you were liable you would pay the excess to the insurance company and not him.

I would not act on anything that wasn't addressed to me and direct from his insurer.

Fire claims are different to EOW claims; there’s specific legislation for damage caused by fires originating elsewhere, hangover from the blitz apparently.

Pass the letters on to your own Insurer and let them deal with it. He’s hoping you’ll pay it out of fear.

Often what happens in EOW claims is that your neighbour’s contents Insurer would pursue your Insurer for the costs associated with the repairs; they would also instruct you to pay your neighbour’s excess. The fact that they haven’t done this speaks volumes, i.e., that they think a successful recovery against you would be unlikely and not worth their while.

As I said, pass the letters and eventual solicitors letters on to your Insurers. They’d liaise with the Insurer for upstairs anyway, so they’ll quickly find out if he’s been forging policy documents. If he approaches you again tell him this is what you intend to do. You'll probably hear no more about it.

fence sitting here. Just to give you a parallel example....

I've been recently rear ended whilst stationary. Very pleasantly surprised that in the 1st conversation with insurance co I was informed that they wouldn't even charge me the excess as they'd get it back from him as t was clearly his fault.

Your washing machine leaked = your fault surely? Whether you realised or not.

If I was your neighbour I'd be using the legal protection on my home cover to sue you for the 1k if you didn't pay up.

And you should be using the public liability element of your insurance to get most of the 1k back surely?

Has the son actually admitted that he knew about the leak and did nothing or rather did he hold off reporting it until he had established that it was an ongoing problem.

I had a leak from a flat roof and didn't chase it up instantly as I was unsure what it was.

I doubt he is claiming 1k from you and another 1k from the building. You already said the building management co was in touch with you about paying the 1k

Cheesecake I cant see where the op has said this. She has said the only one asking for this money is the owner of the flat and nobody else has been in touch with her, if she were liable someone would have contacted long before the work was carried out!

We had accidental water damage to our kitchen and flooring this time last year, our excess was around £200.
They only paid out for the damaged parts of the kitchen and for the flooring that needed to be replaced, so not a complete refit.
I am astonished that he managed to get a 9k kitchen out of this. I cannot fathom how a slow leak would cause so much damage

This bloke is a complete chancer, the insurance would have claimed liability costs when all this was happening not 7 months down the line and not after all evidence of damage is gone and complete refit has taken place.

Tell him to do one!!!

I own a flat in a large development with block insurance policies and the excess is £1000, that said I've had to make a claim when the flat above leaked into me, and also separately had my tank leak into the flat below. In both instances the excess was split by the managing agent across all policy holders. I also regularly see excesses being apportioned on the quarterly bill - can you check back and see if there is any history of excesses being spread amongst all holders.

Doesn't seem fair otherwise - you have to pay into the block policy and if you had the option of personal buildings insurance the excess would likely be a lot less.

Have a mental 'three strikes and I'm reporting insurance fraud' rule. What a dick. he's bullying you to pay his fucking bills! I bet either his tenants reported months ago and he did fuck all maximising the damage or There wasn't much damage and he inflated massively. talk to tenants. I bets hes claimed for their property and not told them. as hes not resident no need to pussyfoot around the relationship go hard at him. Ask for other claims he has made in past 10 years and question his suitablity as an owner to the management company.

Is it a block policy or not?

And if so, what does your lease say about insurance claims under the block policy and how they are dealt with?

Until these two questions are answered none of the advice given here can be considered even vaguely reliable since, as usual, everyone comes on and talks about their experience or their DM's neighbour's aunt's experience.

What atticusclaw said :) (and ignore my previous waffle about our neighbours and the tree )

If you were liable then the insurance policy would not have paid out.

Personally I would report him to the police as a fraudster. Sounds like he's done this before

doubt he would take it to court as it sounds ike he is trying to defraud the insurance company and the management committee.

He would either claim the whole lot against your insurance (including the excess, which your insurer would get from you) or nothing. He has clearly claimed either through the mmnt co insurance or his own insurance, so you cannot be liable for the excess.

The way I see it, is the insurance company have paid out. Therefore they have not apportioned blame to you. Otherwise they would have contacted you. In order to recover his excess now, he would need to take you to court. This means him shelling out for legal representation now and to prove liability with no guarantee of recovering his legal fees.

The fact the insurers didn't put liability on you is telling. Insurers try and get out of paying out wherever possible. If they thought you were liable I'm sure they would have pursued you for the full value, not just the excess.

Its screaming 'fraud' to me.

I'm very surprised he got a whole new kitchen out of it. My policy states that if there is a water damage caused, only the cupboard(s) affected will be replaced.

Water damage is strange, something that initially looks like a minor problem can end up causing considerable damage. What you see on the surfaces doesn't nessecerily relate to the hidden damage. Wood and plaster can initially seem ok before warping and blowing.

I also don't think unusual to have to replace a whole kitchen if there has been an ongoing leak.

The other flatowner sounds a bit of a chancer but I can also see that it is unfair that he has to pay £1000 for damage that the OP caused. I can't see how it's his fault for not reporting it immediately if he was travelling. You can't be expected to stay home just in case a nieghbour causes a leak.

£1000 might be enough incentive to encourage the nieghbour to take the OP to the small claims court. I don't know if that option would be open to him though as I don't know much about insurance legislation.

If I was the OP I would wait and see what the legal advice people say but I would consider paying.

I think that posters are going down the wrong track with all this talk of "his insurer" and "your insurer". For buildings insurance, ie claims arising out of damage to the fabric of the building, your insurer and his insurer are one and the same. Liability for the excess should be explained in the ts and cs of the policy (for which all flats have shared the premium) and your building manager should explain it to you. I am surprised that you are being asked to pay directly to your neighbour,I would have expected the management company to have asked you for it up front before the repairs if you were liable for it.
You say you have spoken to "your insurer" but you must mean your contents insurer. They won't be interested in this claim, unless the cover includes legal expenses cover for third party claims- I suppose your washing machine is "contents" so maybe you get cover for it causing you to have to defend a legal claim? Anyway your contents insurer will tell you if they can help.

Asyou say, it seems like the leak has done him a big favour sinve he's got a new kitchen for a grand.

Please update us when resolved OP, would be very interested to know the actual legal position.

Our upstairs neighbour left the shower on and went to work, resulting in massive damage to our flat. It needed new floors and complete repainting (no new kitchen, sadly ), AFTER serious drying out (with a system of fans/pumps) it was fine. The insurance also paid for us to stay somewhere else, much nicer, whilst it was sorted out.

I never had to deal with the guy directly, it all went through our insurance company. Which, as is often customary, was the same insurance company as his (as it is part of the building management fee).

The insurance company dealt with everything.

At no point did I need to contact this guy myself, let alone ask for money being put into my account (fishy!).

Tell him you have passed on his claim to your insurance company (send them copies of all the docs and communications)