to ask our former-employee's new employer if they were given a reference purporting to be from us.

[namelessposter]

Abridged back story: a former sales employee of ours left at the end of Oct on civil terms, after a year of OK (but not great) performance, telling us they were planning on leaving the country to stay with family, and not returning to the industry.

3 weeks later, they have just turned up in an equivalent role with a competitor about 2 miles away. As they are entitled to do.

BUT on their last day with us, they sent an email to their personal mail, with a blank copy of our company headed paper. Then deleted all their sent mail and logged off.

We restore any mail deleted by exiting employees from back-ups as a matter of course, hence why we know this.

Their new employer didn't approach us for a reference. The employee was with us for 14 months, and that they worked with us is well referenced in the public domain. The new employer is a big company, so seems unlikely that their HR dept wouldn't have asked for references. The employee had form for lying to clients (and we are currently clearing up a couple of messes they left behind in this respect, which have come to light after she's left).

Would you ask the new employer if they were given a written reference on our headed paper, purporting to be from us, and if so, let them know it's a fake?

You don't actually know that she has committed fraud though, do you? She may have sent the letterhead to herself with that in mind, but not actually needed to. Maybe the new employer did not take up the references. If they are in the same field as your company then perhaps they know the name & reputation of the company and decided that was good enough? Maybe someone there knows someone at yours and they asked them verbally - a lot of stuff like that goes on informally on the golf course, for example. So, until you know for sure what if anything they used the letterhead for you can't really go around making phone calls to new companies. You may end up looking very silly.

This thread seems to be getting more and more extreme and obscure with each reply.

OP there must be a procedure for this sort of event within your company? Are you a small company/medium sized? Isn't there a company solicitor or legal person who you could run this past?

I would be extremely concerned about this ex employee and think you should certainly follow it up. I don't know whether it's acceptable to contact the competition and ask them if they received a reference from you. I don't know if they would even be in a position to divulge any information with you regarding a current employee and their application.

Personally I would want to follow proper channels and would take advice before I did anything.

IF she used it to fake a reference, that's fraud.

It's the new compnay's problem.

Do people still ask for references these days? My experience is that there's recognition that refs are so anodyne and bland that they're not worth the paper.....

Other than giving dates of employment, I'm not sure what legal status a reference actually has.

What do you stand to gain or lose by taking action (or not).

Maybe the new employer didn't ask for a reference from you. Would they be that interested in what you had to say considering that you are a competitor? Maybe they just checked with your HR that she worked for you, sickness absence etc. Maybe they phoned someone at your company other than you for a reference.

You could phone them about it but you might look a bit daft if she hasn't done anything wrong. It's not as if you sacked this person. They left on "civil terms" according to you so would have no reason to fake a reference so I'm not sure why you're so suspicious/bothered about it.

I would get in touch to confirm whether a reference is required -

re: "But I take the point that it is the new employers risk if they don't bother to verify references."

If they did use headed notepaper and forged a referennce there will be reputational damage t you if their performance is wildly at odds with the "reference" - I think you have just cause for concern.

There is no innocent reason to send yourself headed note paper.

However Op, why on earth are you asking a bunch of totally unqualified random people on MN about this? Just speak to your in-house counsel (if you have it) or the firm you have on retainer or whatever.

Ignoring the reference question for a moment, the real issue is the headed paper. There is no reasonable explanation for wanting it, no matter how easy it would be to obtain. The only use would be to create fake information which purports to be genuine, whether this would be evidence of an inflated salary or job title to give her new employer (who may have matched it) or more seriously to give false information - such as fake invoices, fake quotations, fake corporate memoranda, to prospective clients. She needs to be warned that it would be fraud to use it. It is absurd to suggest that you should change your stationery, the environmental and physical cost of reprinting it all should not fall on you.

As to the reference, you should take steps, or you could find yourself having to prove that information given over was fraudulent. You don't have to name names (although it would be pretty obvious) but you could state that there have been allegations of false references being supplied and that all references should be confirmed by email or phone.

If she's gone to a competitor and she left a bit of a mess behind, why would you tell them? If they haven't done their due diligence, then let them find out the hard way.

What possible, innocent reason could someone have for needing headed paper from a company that they're are leaving that same day?

It can only possibly have been needed in order to fraudulently create a document that purported to have come directly from the former employer.

No other explanation for that whatsoever. If it was needed for legitimate purposes it wouldn't have been acquired so surreptitiously.

OP can I just ask why you have got such a bee in your bonnet regarding this person?

Is it because she lied to you and said she was going abroad? Maybe she felt embarrassed to tell you. I mean it's not like you could have stopped her is it?

And employers don't ask potential employees for a reference but the request one themselves from the employer, also how do you know someone else in the organisation hasn't been used as a reference?

Large companies have procedures and a large company would certainly be requesting their own reference on their own formatted request form.

Sour grapes from you OP. Don't ruin this for her. If anything confront her and tell her you know she didn't go abroad but don't get her fired

Thinking about it, I'd follow up the matter of the headed paper. They could use it to misrepresent your company in any number of fraudulent ways. It's actually pretty worrying - I'd take legal advice on this issue.

I agree 100% with hereward

Has the OP 'got a bee in their bonnet'?

An employee lied to clients, leaving a mess behind that they're still sorting out now, and has furnished herself with the means to present anything she makes up as having come 'officially' from them.

That has the potential to be fairly damaging to the business and seems like a perfectly legitimate cause for concern.

About the reference. I went from a medium sized company to a large global one. HR was mostly outsourced and because they were so busy, it took 4 months ish to send a reference when I left!

Before you stir up a hornets nest, I really would have a chat with your company solicitor. What did this employee do? Has it caused financial loss to the company? The solicitor may simply write to the ex employee stating that you are aware of the headed paper situation and using company property is fraudulent. Something along those lines.

I'd say the onus is on the new company to check reference details. I'm pretty sure a decent HR manager would be wise to fake references and double check.

Speak to your company solicitor.

Other than giving dates of employment, I'm not sure what legal status a reference actually has.

What do you stand to gain or lose by taking action (or not).

Companies can and have been sued for providing references which are inaccurate, and whilst the OP's company can probably prove that they never provided one for this employee, it will be a lot more time-consuming and unpleasant to be defending themselves against a claim rather than drawing attention to potential fraud pro-actively.

I'm an employment lawyer and if a client came to me saying this had happened I would say write to her (or instruct me to do so, obviously) saying you are aware she forwarded your blank paper to herself on the last day. You are not aware of any lawful reason to have done so, and you want within seven days an explanation of any use she has put it to, and an undertaking that she will not use it again and that she has deleted all copies howsoever held on any device or in hard copy, and that you reserve all your legal rights in relation to this matter and if necessary, to contact her new employer. That should get a response. Also check her employment contract - it's good if you can quote at her any clauses about company property. I take it from the info you've given there are no restrictive covenants in there about competing activities post-termination?

Did your ex employee have anything in her contract about not going to work for direct competitors within a certain timeframe?

It's been a while since I've been employed but all the companies I worked for (big and small consultancies - as a consultant rather than in sales - so might not be quite the same for your company) had clauses in their contracts that you couldn't go and work for direct competitors for xx months. It was there to protect them so that you couldn't switch all your old clients to your new company.

If you have a similar clause in your contracts then maybe she told you she was going abroad to circumvent this?

I could also imagine that she might have taken the headed paper to send a letter to all her clients to let them know where she is moving on to - she could easily have client details at home having taken them previously for valid reasons or for this purpose.

The person that sent the email may have done it accidentally on purpose to let you know what was happening. Whatever their intention, they did send the email to your company and you're therefore perfectly within your rights to pick up the phone, call them and say, all nice and chatty, you were interested to see that ex had been in contact with them, would they mind awfully telling you how they found out this from ex employee - was it because they already used the other suppliers too or had she contacted them, was it on headed paper etc etc.

Then you'll find out what's happening directly from the horses mouth so to speak!

Hereward said
Ignoring the reference question for a moment, the real issue is the headed paper. There is no reasonable explanation for wanting it, no matter how easy it would be to obtain. The only use would be to create fake information which purports to be genuine, whether this would be evidence of an inflated salary or job title to give her new employer (who may have matched it) or more seriously to give false information - such as fake invoices, fake quotations, fake corporate memoranda, to prospective clients. She needs to be warned that it would be fraud to use it. It is absurd to suggest that you should change your stationery, the environmental and physical cost of reprinting it all should not fall on you.

Which is exactly my take on the situation. I'd want to have her warned in writing with notice that should anything suspect turn up, her actions re stealing the headed paper have been recorded and will be passed to the Police in the first instance.

It seems some people are underestimating the seriousness of what the employee has possibly probably done.

Falsifying a signature is a criminal offence for a start.

This is something I don't understand either - there's no legitimate reason for an ex-employee to secretly provide themselves with the means to misrepresent their former employer at will.

Though it is a blessing that she's seemingly too thick to cover her tracks and hopefully lacks the intelligence or ability to carry out any fraudulent actions without tripping herself up.

Leaving aside the headed paper - has the ex-employee emailed anything else from your business email to their personal one? (It might be worth going back several months at least, and checking). You probably need to find out whether confidential information such as your customer database has been pinched, as that could be seen as your company breaching Data Protection, as well as it being theft.

In your shoes, I would approach the ex-employee and ask for an explanation why she sent herself a blank company header. As has already been pointed out, giving herself a false reference from you is the most benign possibility.

If I had suspicions and I didn't follow them up, I would feel like an accomplice to this person should her actions prove to be dishonest.

None go the ops business ?!
It's quite literally her business
Would no one feel a moral obligation to report that they suspect a crime has been committed'

What Percy said.

And did she have a restrictive covenant at all? I suspect she was planning this hence the red herring about moving abroad.